A better sound from ROON

You may want to read this thread about sound quality. Brian from Roon has some good posts.

I liken a lot of the tweaking discussions on hi Fi forums to the task of cleaning your windows in bright sunshine. You always see the marks and so the discussion begins.
“I use X make polish, I use Y brand cloth. I am a traditionalist and only use vinegar with newspaper. Newspaper is great but the Gaurdian has the best quality” and on and on.
All the time forgetting to just re focus and enjoy the view out of the window.

Thoughts, Chris :smiling_imp:

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I get the point you’re making, but I think it’s possible you’re going a bit overboard here. No, I don’t want Roon to bankrupt itself, nor do I want Roon to license a bazillion upsampling/filtering technologies. Right now Roon has none, and what I think would be useful for a lot of users would be to have high-quality upsampling/filtering that’s easy to configure and use (but not compulsory). Audirvana and Fidelia both license this kind of technology from third parties, and I’m pretty sure neither one of the developers has orders of magnitude more financial resources than Roon does.

I think perhaps the difference in perspective has to do, at least in part, with coming from being a fan of the Meridian ecosystem or something similar, vs. having spent more time mixing and matching hardware and software components from a range of manufacturers. (And BTW, I specifically mentioned upthread that I didn’t think I had “golden ears.” However, I can do A-B comparisons of the same track played back via two different applications.)

This seems a bit gratuitously confrontational, but I’ll attempt a reasonable response: I’ve stated I’m okay with some kind of Roon/HQP integration, and that seems like it’s in the works. Personally, I’m not opposed to system complexity if it serves a purpose, and I’ve been toiling away in the end-user computing vineyards for enough decades that while complexity doesn’t excite me all that much, it also doesn’t inspire terror or high anxiety. Looking around at a lot of other audiophiles in their 50s and up, though, I can see that a lot of these folks favor the KISS approach. (And as a Mac guy, I myself appreciate the beauty of a well-designed, intuitive interface.)

Also, I think i’s important to keep in mind that while Roon has a stunning UI/UX and does some things that are revolutionary, it’s still playback software. And as a fan, I want it to be best-in-class playback software.

As far as my system goes, it’s a work in progress, I put it together myself (with input from a few folks who know more than I do), and I think it sounds pretty good. If you want the details, you can find them here.

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I concur that the enjoyment of music is paramount. What determines (read elements) the equation for the enjoyment of music ultimately resolves with the SQ. With the advent of roon the finest UI/UX has arrived. Add EM (enjoyment of music) to the equation and nowithstanding the finest view is from the roon window, the complex equivalence for the finest sound (SQ) is soundly based on personal preference.

I own a license for all the players except JRMC (please don’t read anything into that). I prefer the SQ from Amarra Symphony with iRC (Dirac SE) over HQPlayer’s. Other member prefer HQP or Audirvana Plus V.2.X or…I doubt there’s a consensus which software player is the best to the exclusive of all others. But HQPlayer upsamples PCM and plays DSD natively better (best?) Amarra Symphony doesn’t. And no program provides all the elements/criteria we value for the time that roon accomplishes. If SQ trumps all other criteria, roon is not the equal of the other players. But roon in my opinion is “good enough” which is not a concession in my assessment. HQPlayer or Amarra Symphony or…if integratable without “issues” and discretionary would seem to be an advantage.

roon with Dirac Live (Full), IMO, improves the SQ and is better than without Dirac Live. roon with TIDAL is another advantage; and TIDAL HIFI provides better SQ than without HIFI. Recently, I have added Sonic Studio’s Amarra sQ+with iRC to roon and/or with roon with TIDAL HIFI, and this implementation improved on the SQ than without AsQ+. Of course, my assessment is intended as my own; and I would expect one to always check it out for themselves, or not at all, whatever one chooses.

Disclosure: I am a volunteer beta tester for Sonic Studio since 2011. I purchase every program I use and or beta test. How else to be trusted by Sonic Studio and the membership and maintain my integrity? I own licenses for Amarra For TIDAL and Amarra sQ+ and both applications work with iRC and work with TIDAL HIFI first time paid-for streaming subscription). AsQ+ works with roon. AsQ+ also provides me with 4-way Parametic EQ, pre-configured EQ AND iRC and when employed with roon those advantages affect roon’s SQ overall for better or worse. In my experience for the better even though as very good as roon’s SQ is without an additional application. I have had a bias against using EQ but lately, I have found it to be an advantage.

A better sound for roon could also include hardware tweaks as an incidental “application” that improves roon or HQPlayer, Amarra Audrivana Plus etc. Call it collateral improvement. Again all at one’s option to employ or not to. Visit other forums and the rage for UpTone Audio components, JS-2 LPS, the Regen signal integrity, impediance matching, MMK power supply for Mac Mini and fan controller regulator, AudioQuest’s JitterBug etc. all inure to the sound of roon and every other program unless one decides that is not so. I have added those “devices” and roon’s sound has been improved.

I am already at the decision point that roon is now the fulcrum for my application of choice as much as I love Amarra Symphony with iRC. At the very least, I have choices. But I am smitten by roon’s overall UI/UX/EM and with the addition of application/device tweaks, my decision to purchase a lifetime license was a stroke of good fortune. With roonSpeaker on deck sometime in the Future, cne might conclude that the sound will get better if only because it’s availability expands to include more scenarios and conveyances to bring the enjoyment of music to us.

The music’s the thing; the equipment seduces,
Richard

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@REShaman Thank you very much for the very detailed and thoughtful post!

[quote=“REShaman, post:72, topic:3621”]
Recently, I have added Sonic Studio’s Amarra sQ+with iRC to roon
[/quote] Could you please provide more details or provide a link to a discussion on how to integrate sQ+ with Roon? Is it possible to do it with the RoonServer?

Hello Juri,

I have no experience with roon server so my remarks are directed to roon’s present build and Amarra sQ+ ("AsQ+) and with iRC (impulse response correction) which is a Dirac SE program integrated with Sonic Studio programs but requires a separate license in the same way that Dirac Live requires.

So as not to double post at the roon community, allow me to refer you to my post at another thread, Roon and Amarra SQ/ 3.0 etc., Roon and Amarra SQ / 3.0 etc. You’ll find several steps, 7 in all, which should answer your question. Please understand that for the present, SRC (sample rate change) must be performed manually and presently there is no remote app for AsQ+. I know! What a pain! As a beta tester, I have a different perspective. Just allow me to leave it at that without further explanation. Sonic Studio would frown on my vague disclosure as vague as it is in any case so inquiries will not be responded to.

roon is marvelous. And I love that I can implement other applications in tandem that adds to this gorgeous UI/UX/EM synergy. I find myself addicted to roon these days. And each implementation adds to the exquisite UI/UX/EM, now with the rRA (roon remote app). I have no present need for the roon server. I will have need for the roonSpeaker; who won’t? (smile).

I hope roon Labs doesn’t mind my remarks about other applications at the roon community. If you have any problems, perhaps, a PM might be more appropriate. But it’s pretty straight forward. And shortly the pain will be relieved re SRC. iRC is already available. Dirac Live is not a workable solution with Sonic Studio applications but Dirac Live, which is also wonderful adds to roon’s SQ.

That’s it. Enjoy the music,
Richard

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@Go_Ga and @REShaman I just wanted to point out that Roon and RoonServer are identical except for the graphics requirements. What you can do with one in respects to sQ+ integration you can do with the other.

Hello Daniel,

Thank you for the clarification. Without direct experience with roonServer I would (could) not comment, as my only direct experience is with roon core.

Best,
Richard

I think that sQ+ should be used only on a computer that performs the actual sound output. If I use the RoonServer only to manage the library and then use Roon remote on another computer to access and play music from the RoonServer, the sQ+ should be installed on the control computer.

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That makes sense to me. I was only pointing out that Roon and RoonServer are the same program with only the video portion disabled on the “Server” version.

Yes, the audio chain always goes through the core, but only goes through a remote if a private zone on that remote is the output. When HQP integration arrives it will need a core that can handle the DSP requirements, which can be substantial. I am not sure what the requirements are for sQ+. This may be an issue for users who are using RoonServer to escape the spec requirements of a full Roon installation, although the requirements would seem to differ; DSP being assisted by multiple cores and maths processing (non Celeron) and full Roon having a graphics requirement. I would hope that it wouldn’t come as a surprise to people that an otherwise under-spec machine may not be capable of all implemented DSP.

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Hello andybob,

All excellent points especially the awareness that HQPlayer is demanding in process power to accomodate upsampling (more for downsampling from DSD) and native playback of DSD 128 - 512. Given that roon’s remote app demands certain iPad models to work, if and when HQPlayer is integrated or however the synergy will work, the demands will probably be even more demanding of resources and processing power. AsQ+ (http://www.sonicstudio.com/amarra/amarra_sqp) is nowhere as demanding and yet provides excellent and advanced EQ controls, 13 filters, 4-band full- parametric EQ with filters etc. AsQ+ is and will be much less demanding of resources compared to HQPlayer and will operate comfortably on many models.

I imagine roon Labs will allow for a flexibility for the integration or compatibility of other applications that augment what roon does so well that will inure to the UI/UX/EM. I have never experienced such a spirit for the development of this marvelous application. There’s no other model to compare roon to. It has already started to alter computer audio from what was. Perhaps, Audirvana Plus and JRMC are other examples, but I never upgraded my earlier build of Audirvana Plus.

I hope my Mac Mini is sufficiently powered for the iterations of roon that may come forward. If not, then I may have to conform to whatever those requirements will demand. I may have company…(smile).

Best,
Richard

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Linking to RoonServer over Roon core on MacMini where the subject is diverging / being hijacked (!) and would be better addressed here. :innocent:

I got the results I wanted with a dedicated fanless PC running Win10, Fidelizer and RoonServer. Down the chain is Stello U3 converter and AudioNoteKits DAC 4.1LE. The Roon iPad app makes it work smoothly.

i3 processer, separate OS SSD and 1T SSD with mainly ALAC music files.

Question I have for the audience here, what additions to Fidelizer do AudioOptimiser and Project Lasso provide? There was a nice improvement from Win7+JRiver going to my current system.

I also wish for a PC app that does what the iPad app does.

A PC app to use as remote? It’s already there, just install another Roon and choose remote :wink:

I used AO on win server 2012, fundamentally it helps to disable the unnecessary processes and also optimizes the core system components for the best sound reproduction.

Process Lasso allows you to optimaze the usage of the system resources for various applications running. For example, you can set the process priority and assign CPU cores to the audio player software. It basically, allows you to run the audio software with much less interruptions which leads to a better sound reproduction. I found that PL significantly reduces the system resources usage during the playback, CPU runs cooler and the battery runs longer on my dedicated audio laptop.

Richard,

Seems like you know Amarra well. I can get ASq+ to work with Roon, but get random clicks and pops, to the point that I don’t use Amarra. Looking around the forum I found someone who had the same issues but they were resolved when they upgraded to Win 10. Are there buffering settings in Roon or Amarra that can be tweeked? I am using a new Macbook Air to a Devialet 120. It happens whether I go direct with a USB cord or go thru a USB/SPDIF converter. Any thoughts? I contacted the Sonic Stream folks but they are not responding.

Thanks,
Dan

Dear Dan,

Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I know AsQ+/A4T (Amarra For TIDAL) both with iRC and Amarra Symphony with iRC, as I am a beta tester (volunteer basis since 2011). I am sorry to learn you are experiencing pops and clicks with AsQ+ and roon. As a contrast frame, I am not experiencing any pops/clicks. I’ll add my signature from Computeraudiophile.com to provide you wth my system.

I gather you have turned off Exclusive Mode for Sonic Stream as your Zone (otherwise it won’t produce sound). Obviously, with the information you provided about your system which is sparse, i.e., build version of the software, OS software, drivers etc., such that the possibilities for what might cause pops/clicks are varied.

I employ the latest builds of every software program that may be involved in playing music through roon and AsQ+. And, because I do beta test, I am using the latest beta builds that are have not yet been published. But I do not think that is the reason for the absence of those peccadillos that are spoiling your enjoyment with roon and AsQ+.

Also, I do not employ Windows software other than Win 7/VMWare on my iMac. But do not use that system for music.

I also regret that you are being ignored by Sonic Studio, and in particular, Amarra Support. What a contrast with roon’s support staff and principal owners. I am actually embarrassed by Sonic Studio’s silence in response to your request for support.

As much as I would want to help, I don’t think I could assess what might be the triggers for the pops and clicks compared to the experience Amarra Support would provide given their exposure to the OS/hardware/software combinations they have experience with.

I know you don’t need me to state the obvious given that you’ve come to me when the best experience should come from Sonic Studio. But I would email them back with a request for support and a remote session, if that is possible, to help identify and sort out the possible solutions.

Sorry I can’t be more helpful. I would wish that I could.

Feel free to let me know what you discover, if you care to.

Hoping you solve this issue sooner than later.

Best,
Richard

Software: OS X El Capitan, iTunes, Amarra SymphonywiRC, Amarra sQ+wiRC, Amarra For TidalwiRC, Audirvana Plus+, BitPerfect & DSD Master, Decibel, Fidelia, HQPlayer, Pure Music, roon & Dirac Live (Full), TIDAL HIFI; Computer: Mac Mini (2011, 2.7 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo i7, 16GB, int. SSD 256GB); Video: 27" Cinema Thunderbolt Display; Storage: Promise Pegasus 18TB R6 Raid 5 & 12TB R6 Raid 5; Digital: Oppo BDP-95; Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 DSDse & Femto Grade Clock Mod; Uptone Audio JS-2 LPS, USB Regen Amber, MMK (Mac mini DC-Conversion / Linear Fan Controller Kit ); AudioQuest JitterBug X2; Atlona AT-HD577; Preamplification: Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE Stage 2; Amplification: W4S SX1000 (x2); Bryston 10B Sub LR 50Hz, 24dB/Octave/2-way active crossover; Speakers: KEF Reference 107; JL Audio F112 x 2 set to mono on Sound Anchor stands; KEF X300A on Sound Anchor stands; Cables: Light Harmonic LightSpeed USB (standard); Synergistic Research: Active SE USB, Tesla LE Acoustic Reference & Precision Reference XLR ICs, Tesla LE Acoustic Reference speaker cables, Tesla LE Subwoofer 2 cables, Tranqility Base, QLS9 & T2 power cable; Black Cat Veloce 75 ohm; DH Lab Silver HDMI 1.4; W4S P1 Ultra Power cables; DH Labs Power Plus AC Cable; Shunyata Venom 3. Pioneer BDR-208. iPad Air 2. Limited Edition NY Chrome Pono Player.

Dear Dan (again)

Part II: It’s no secret, in other words I am not violating any NDA, though I keep my experiences to myself prior to the official publications by Sonic Studio, that it behooves you to get AsQ+, with or without iRC, to your satisfaction as shortly there will be an A4T remote app release from the App Store, and over some time frame (don’t know – really!) a remote app for AsQ+. As Sonic Studio has already posted this information at their own website, I am not violating any confidentiality.

I believe the remote apps will work for both OS X and Windows. Just wanted to add an incentive, which I am sure is high already, for getting AsQ+ to play nicely.

Hope Sonic Studio responds to your request for support,
Richard

Add me to this so called minority. Easy to make statements about minorities or the ubiquitous silent majority.

My player of choice before ROON was Audrivana. I with others was seduced by ROON’s GUI and subscribed. Happy with the sound until a passage of music sounded distorted. Playing in A+2 the passage was clear. A/B’ing the 2 players A+2 was definately sounded better in my no where near a high end system and probably not even mid level. So for serious listening I have been drawn back to A+2.

With the integration of ROON and HQPlayer was curious. After downloading a trial of HQPlayer bought the license within 1 day. I have never heard computer based music so musical with no fatigue.

ROON’s GUI with HQPlayer’s SQ, heaven.

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