Please explain this to me?
Not really Lumin specific, but still related to the topic:
On my PS Audio Direcstream DAC with Bridge2 I have always preferred UPNP (direct, or via BubbleUPNP server OpenHome proxy) to Roon regarding SQ (Roon sounding more grainy/veiled/less air/realism). I am running headless Roonserver on the same Linux machine as Minimserver+Bubbleupnpserver (NUC 6i7KYK). Of course the bitperfect test always passes…
After months of tuning and experimenting I have decided to build own streamer with high care of EMI/RFI, galvanic isolation and separated grounds with tuned Linux OS, connected directly via I2S to my dac. Running there UPNP client and RoonBridge.
Today I have almost finished this project and made another test with my friend - Roon now sounds on the same level as UPNP on Bridge2, BUT UPNP via this streamer sounds even better.
So it seems whatever I do, the UPNP always surpasses Roon in SQ.
I will not give up and will experiment further as I enjoy this and hopefully at some point I will be able to say Roon is on the same level as UPNP.
EDIT: of course I am not talking about night&day differences, but during A/B testing it’s quite clear…
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In curious contrast, back when I moved to Roon, I had the opposite experience: Roon>microRendu>Yggdrasil>… won hands down over UPNP>microRendu>Yggdrasil. (Since then I moved to an Aries Femto feeding AES to the Yggy and I’ve not done the test again.) Which goes to show that it’s not so much the protocol as how the various components work together and and how the software uses the hardware (including possible subtle bugs) and how that affect the electrical signal from the streamer to the DAC. Bit perfect does not address the electrical noise that comes along for the ride on the connection between streamer and DAC, which depends on specific processing activity in the streamer, and can affect the DAC’s analog output.
Curious. Is replaygain tag use option set to OFF in Roon. If on, you could be getting subtle volume differences when using Roon.
@garym thanks for the tip, however i am not doing any modification to audio stream (replay-gain including) - as i mentioned it is bitperfect stream in both cases of Roon/UPNP.
in UPNP i am transcoding FLAC to WAV and DSD to DoP (WAV)
@Fernando thanks for your feedback. I sold my femto Aries a year ago as it was not on the level of the Bridge2 (even with USB Regen, which helped Aries but not enough). But it’s good to know it is probably system dependent as you wrote.
I am pretty much aware of the noise issues in digital connections, that’s why i have built own streamer with 3 separate linear PSUs , my streamer ethernet connection is also galvanically separated from LAN via optical transceivers…
Hum… You mention Regen, which I guess means that you were using the Aries USB output. That might have been the issue. The only reason I got the Aries is that it was known to perform very well with the Yggy via AES, and I’ve confirmed that.
USB receivers in most DACs I’ve used or read detailed reviews of are typically their least good inputs. The one exception in my actual experience is in the Soekris dac1541, which performs remarkably well even with a low-cost USB source, although it does even a bit better with S/PDIF (which is how I have it currently configured). Next best in my experience, Schiit Eitr/Gen 5 closes (but does not erase) the gap to AES on Schiit multibit DACs.
I’m running Roon headless on a Windows 10 (stripped down) machine. Have you compared Roon/Linux vs Roon/Windows 10? I would dearly love to do the comparison but don’t have the Linux skills to do it.
Also can I understand that your Roon server and PS Audio are both connected via ethernet to LAN and not directly via USB?
@ed_kwok unfortunately not as I do not have windows machine at home. But if someone would tell me there is big change Roon Core on windows would sound better than on Linux i would manage it…
EDIT: sorry i have missed your question - yes I am using ethernet connection either via integrated streamer (Bridge2) in my PS Audio DAC, or via external ethernet based-streamer connected via I2S to DAC
With factory default settings (in Lumin app: re-sampling off, Ultrasonic DSD Filter off) of Lumin A1 / T1 / D1 / D2, you can achieve the DSD Direct mode these ways:
- Use Lumin app to play a .DSF or .DFF music file containing DSD64 music from MinimServer
- Use Lumin app to play a PCM music file containing DSD64 in DoP format from MinimServer
- Use Lumin app to play a 44.1kHz - 96kHz music from MinimServer, with the Lumin app re-sampling options for these rates changed to DSD (i.e. not factory default)
- Use Roon to play a DSD64 music file with DSP Engine off and Volume Leveling off
- Use Roon to play any music file resampled to DSD64 via DSD Engine
According to the theory (which is quite popular) mentioned by Ed_Kwok, this is the optimal path in the hardware (which is true) and therefore should give the best sound quality - which may or may not be true in practice depending on the combination of your sonic preference, the calculation of PCM -> DSD64 conversion, and the rest of your audio chain.
If you’d like to experiment further, check out fiber media conversion. Not too expensive to try.
I would not tell you to use Windows. However, you may look into making your Roon Core fanless and use a LPS for it. Options include DIY upgrades for your existing Roon Core, Roon Nucleus, SonicTransporter, NUC7i5BNH with Akasa Newton S7 and SBooster for NUC.
@wklie I am already galvanically separated from LAN via optical transceivers 
even tried separate usb3 lan interface on roon core dedicated to streamer ti filter out any unnecessary broadcast etc (without any perceived improvement).
As my NUC core is not in listening room i am not sure if LPS would made any improvement - the SMPS should have no impact to my audio chain (which is further filtered via P10 Powerplant regenerator).
Idea with passive cooling is intriguing, however to passively cool I7 is challenge, but will look to options you suggested- thanks!
Wow this is interesting topic !
Loads of comments and as a reader it’s not easy to follow the comments as they go from left to right.
My recap of what I learned :
Content is stored on a Synology NAS.
Synology NAS is placed next to the Limun DAC
Playing the content from the NAS to the Limun DAC and skipping Roon =. perfect sound
Playing the content from the NAS while running Roon on the NAS = degraded sound
Adding Mechanical isolators underneath the NAS = improving sound quality
Based on this information, perhaps this test might be interesting.
- Put the NAS far away from your DAC. The further the better. Don’t use wifi to connect, use cable.
My feel is that the problem will be gone.
Big change is that the NAS is disturbing the DAC via air and via vibration
That’s why you hear the difference when you are mechanical isolating the NAS from your DAC.
Likely you will have the same improvement when you’ll put these isolators under your DAC.
- When you’re pulling content from the NAS the CPU in the NAS will generate disturbance on the mains and via the air. The amount and pattern of pollution the NAS is generating will be different when running Roon on the NAS or not. When the DAC and NAS are side by side the air pollution generated by the NAS from can hammer your DAC very easily.
That is why when you place them further apart a sound improvement will likely be heard.
Hans
Hi, Hans
Ya a lot is going on in this thread, and that’s great.
You got a pretty good theory there and you could be right and I’ll have to test it, but first I will try the LPS when it arrives.
Regards
I’m having similar issue with Roon on my new Naim Atom. I have Roon core on Linux pc running Vortexbox OS and music is stored on my NAS. Both Nas and core are in a different room to my listening environment, yet I can hear a night and day difference between native upnp and Tidal streaming on the Atom via its own app compared to some music sources via the Atoms RAAT implementation. It’s very frustrating and not sure what it is. The only difference is using the core which sounded good on my last system using just a pi.
I’m glad it’s not just me… but ya it’s really frustrating cause Roon is really nice to use, but if the sound quality cant match (in my case) lumin then I’d rather settle with the lumin app.
Thomas, you ordered a LPS for your NAS right?
Is your network switch also powered by a LPS?
Yes my router, switch and Nas is powered by an LPS, and it’s connected to the outlet that has separated ground and is has its own power group with the AHP Klang Modul instead of the normal automatic fuse.
Ok, in that case, the best thing would be to put all the non-audio gear like NAS out of the room.
The other thing that you may want to try is shielded ethernet cables, if you already have not. I have a few of them around to compare from time to time: Cat 5e/6 UTP, Cat 6a S/STP with various grounding. Some have shields on both, others have shields on one, others are completely floating on both ends. Of course, you also have to consider whether the switch/router is grounded or not.
The floating Cat 6a S/STP is what has suited me the best overall throughout the chain. I also use stock 14 AWG shielded power cables with my gear going into a Torus. All of these cables are $5-$10.
Hi guys
I promised an update when my LPS got connected.
I got overall better sound with both Lumin and Roon, But the sound is still not as good when using Roon .
Unfortunately I couldn’t make all the tests within the 14days trail, and therefore I had to pay for a hole year.
I’ve tried everything… core on pc, core on NAS, nas in another room, ssd, normal hdd, upsampling, etc etc. and I’m not sure that i ever will achieve the same good sound when using Roon.
I spoke to my local Hifi pusher, and he actually tried the exact same thing with a lumin A1 he got in a barter.
He observed the same things as I did… with Roon the music is not alive and the sound lacks details.
Roon has to be installed onboard the Dac/streaming device to perform as good as (in our case) LUMIN Software he said.
Merging+nadac has roon installed and this should (imo) be an upgrade option by lumin and others.