I currently have a Naim NDX2 streamer/DAC and stream using Qobuz through Roon with a Naim Supernait 2. Could I sell off the NDX2 and just have a high end DAC such as PS Audio with Roon and Qobuz ?
Do you have something to feed that DAC? You still need some digital source (whether the Roon core itself, or something else) to plug into the new DAC.
Honestly, not sure if anything from PS could possibly be an improvement over Naim, but if you like the sound…
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Hey, thanks for the reply. I thought that Qobuz through Roon would be all I need to stream to my integrated Naim Supernait 2. Am I wrong? As for the DAC, I was also looking at the MSB Discrete.
It doesn’t matter whether the track comes from Qobuz or your local library, with Roon it always goes to the Roon core first, then gets sent to the selected output device by the core.
That device could be either attached to the core directly (for MSB you would need to pay extra for an USB input card, but at least they have that option), attached directly to a Roon bridge (i.e. any computer; and you still need USB input, unless you find a computer with coax or optical out), or include/attach to a network streamer, like than NDX2.
WIth MSB ,it looks like you an get a network adapter for it that turns it into a Roon ready streamer, like your Naim.
Since it’s not my money, go for MSB with “The MSB Network Renderer V2” module. That should give you all the functionality you currently have, in a single box that’s aesthetically pleasing and offers some expandability.
Of course if it were my money I’d go for a DAC that offers state of the art transparent performance with similar quality looks and features (which would be about 1/10 the price of MSB, including streaming support) and spend the rest on speakers and acoustic treatment, but one could certainly do worse than that.
What is the rest of your system? The NDX2 is great.
Thanks Boris. You seem to have something in mind for “State of the Art” at a tenth the price and still be better than my NDX2. Do tell…
Not really anything specific. Pretty much anything based on the recent ESS or AKM chips will be as close to the original signal as anything, and any differences between devices would generally be something that highly sensitive lab equipment might pick up, but humans won’t (well, really, under controlled conditions most people will not tell MP3 file from a high-res 32/768 one anyway).
Now, it doesn’t mean that you’d necessarily like or dislike hem. Some people pay extra money for tube DACs because they want to add some “analogue” distortion or something. My personal take on this is that if I want to emulate tubes, or ladder DACs, or something like that, I can always add noise and distortion elsewhere, but I’d rather keep the basic D to A conversion as clean as possible.
NDX2 is, I think, a perfectly fine streamer/DAC. Not completely state of the art, but fine. Sure, if you do trade it in and bring home a shiny new toy, it will sound much better. How much of that is real vs. psychological is another question 
Having said that, a newer streamer would at the very least support higher resolutions, which is nice to have, and have more features. Boxes from Holo Audio or Lumin are quite popular here. I like HiFi Rose. Software is somewhat flaky (albeit less so than, say, Bluesound) but it is the case for pretty much every boutique brand, and the sound is as accurate as you’d get from anything else.
Honestly, I’d just listen to a few of those and see how the ergonomics are and how well the design meshes with the rest of your house…
Sounds like you know your stuff. Thanks for your time writing so much on the topic.
You say a newer unit will have higher res capabilities. This is the NDX2 spec… UPnP-enabled to allow streaming of audio files at up to 32bit/384kHz resolution. And… * Native support for Qobuz with true high-res streaming up to 24-bit/192kHz quality. What is higher now and would you hear a higher res?
I personally do not worry about rates any higher than 24/96 with Qobuz…
If you want something new, I recommend having a look at ASR measurements for orientation as to DACs. Unfortunately quite often expensive DACs do not deliver a low noise floor. This does not have to be your only guideline, but I would take it into account.
Good to know. Where can you see the ASR rate?
Thanks
You’re welcome!
Would you hear it? No (assuming, of course, that it comes from the same master). And it is highly unlikely that any streaming service would support higher resolution – somebody has to pay for all the bandwidth.
If you were to buy tracks from some place like NativeDSD, they do sell 24/384 as well as DSD up to DSD1024 (of course it is all upsampled from original recordings that are, at best, 24/384 DXD files using HQPlayer, which you might as well do yourself if you want to go down that rabbit hole; but I guess enough people ask for it, so they do it). So as far as formats and resolutions go, upgrading the DAC would only gain you ability to play DSD tracks natively, and ability to upsample PCM tracks to something in excess oi of 32/384 externally (whether using Roon, or HQPlayer, or something else). Whether it is really worth the effort is another question (I very much doubt it, other than that if something was natively recorded in DSD, I’ll try to get it in DSD format; not so much for any audible benefits, which would be far too subtle, but really just for the psychological satisfaction of listening to something as close to the original as possible).
I haven’t seen detailed measurements of the NDX2, but the “cheaper” (inasmuch as “cheaper” applies to Naim) Unity Atom turns in quite mediocre DAC performance. NDX is most likely better, but the Burr-Brown (well, TI now) chips aren’t quite a top of the line DACs they used to be before. A more state of the art DAC (assuming everything else in the system is in top shape) would have lower noise floor and less distortion, and would resolve volume differences better. How much of it is actually audible…
I would try some modern transparent DAC. It could even be a $700 Topping or something like that. If you do like how that sounds, there’s a wealth of devices to chose, to match your preferences in ergonomics, design, and price level. Mola Mola is really good. Not sure how it would look next to a Naim, design language is completely different, but it would completely replace the NDX2, being a Roon Ready device. A HiFi Rose RS150B in black would not look too much out of place near Supernait, and you could put something black with pale green dots as a screensaver picture, too
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Extremely doubtful that anyone could “hear” a higher res, whatever they might say.
And if you’re worried about looks, drape a curtain over it all, or put it in a cabinet. It’s the music that matters.
While that’s true, Naim stuck to it because they know exactly how to work with it and, as Naim would say, make it play music. There’s also more going on in that board than just the DAC. Personally, I haven’t compared it to anything else in my all-Naim system, but the whole thing together sounds sublime as it is (and as a whole I prefer it to anything else I listened to for any extent of time), so I have no pressing needs to compare. Hence also my question to the OP what the rest of the system is - there might well be some system synergy going on and it may be different in a non-Naim system.
If I was in the OP’s shoes and thinking about replacing it, I’d make sure to listen preferably blindly before wasting money on another streamer plus DAC (both of which would be needed to replace an NDX2)
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As I read the original post, there’s at least a Supernait in there, so looks like a Naim-based system.
I think Naims sound quite pleasant (and they really do like all-Naim systems). It’s not necessarily what I would chose for my personal enjoyment, but they are good (although after the death of founder and sale to Focal they are less of an engineering-run company, and more of a marketing-run one). But the OP specifically asked about replacing the Naim streamer with something else…
We don’t really know what the OP actually likes or wants either. Most “audiophile” brands do have sound that’s pleasing (at least to some subset of audiopholes), even if decidedly not accurate, but you don’t know which one you do like unless you actually listen to it
Huh, was that always there and did I miss it? Dunno
There are surely many problems with this somewhat unholy alliance (but most likely they would have died otherwise), but I think “more marketing than engineering driven” is going too far, there are still a lot of the old Naim nuts in leading positions and there is still a lot of world-class audio engineering going on in Salisbury. And building stuff that people actually want to buy nowadays is not a bad thing. (Such as now one unified power supply for the whole new range instead of silly 5 different ones )
Sure, but as we all know, what audiophilia nervosa makes people think is not necessarily what they should do
Now that there is a Supernait in the mix, one would think that maybe there was a reason to go with an all Naim system. If the OP likes that sound, there is no guarantee that switching to a different DAC will make it better for their taste.
If the NDX2 is even the bottleneck in that system, which is far from proven. (We don’t even know the speakers and room setup, or if the OP uses Roon DSP).
Exactly, and IMHO I’m not running a test lab but want to listen to music in a way that is pleasing to me, and that differs for everyone.
All in all, I think the OP’s question so far is ill-defined. What are the perceived weaknesses? What change are they looking for? Maybe the money is best spent on speakers, or maybe Roon DSP with a convolution filter from HAF for $100 is all that’s needed and by far the best bang for the buck. Or, dare I say it, an XPS DR power supply for that NDX2 or Supernait, if we stay in the Naim world of thinking (not super expensive used).
No way to avoid listening, if there really has to be a hardware change
People want lots of things. Two doors down, there a huge thread where people seriously discuss SQ differences between different types of fiber-optic cables 
Sure, Naim still has competent engineers, PS Audio they aren’t, but still selling cables is a bad sign, and so is selling power supplies. For the price of a Naim component, I expect it to have a competently designed one (that’s what… $60 worth of parts even if you are a boutique manufacturer buying them retail?).
Can’t argue with that!
Or even if there isn’t. Properly done room correction and, possibly (we don’t know what the speakers are) a subwoofer or two are likely to have more impact than replacing a DAC.
Since MSB was mentioned as one of the options, I don’t think normal budget constraints really apply anyway 
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Wow, so much discussion. Let me answer most of your questions.
First, my kit. Naim Supernait 2 with Teddy Pardo external PS, Naim NDX2 with Teddy Pardo external PS, Westlake BBSM4 Studio monitors, SVS 3000sb sub, all the stuff Small Green Computer offers to clean up any noise. My room is 10’x14’ with sound absorption panels to reduce the liveliness in the room. I stream exclusively from Qobuz with a few exceptions of music I own on the dedicated drive which runs the Roon Core.
The reason for this discussion is only because I am of the belief that the quality of the DAC is of utmost influence on how close to Analog you can get digital. Truth be told, you only know what you know/ hear and I absolutely LOVE my setup, But, as we all do, we’re forever chasing the holy grail of sound which is why the question was originally asked.
Hope that answers all the holes in my OP.
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Have you thought about some different speakers - that might have a bigger impact than going down the DAC/streamer rabbit hole?
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Have you tried analyzing the speaker-room interaction and applied some room correction? That might have bigger impact on getting more natural sound than a DAC, and since you already took care of acoustic treatments, it probably would be rather mild change, too, mostly to flatten the frequency response rather than also having to deal with echoes and timing…
Since you’re using studio monitors anyway, maybe look into some higher-end active studio monitors, like Neumann or Genelec?
“Analog” is a very vague description though. Some people use it to mean a “tube” kind of sound with rather high but more pleasant euphonic distortion. Others mean the sound that is closer to whatever was pressed onto a CD / recorded to a hard drive, or whatever they did when mastering.
If you are after the former, then you may want some special DAC. I’ve never looked into those closely, but there are some, like LampiZator, that have literal tubes (and distortion up the wazoo) in them. If after the latter. any well-made state of the art DAC that does not intentionally go for some kind of coloration would do (people will tell you that they can tell them apart… and they can – if they see which one is playing – but possibly apart from the Chord’s designer guy, who claims to be able to hear well below the thermal noise of the atmosphere it’s not the case for actual humans when they do NOT see what’s playing).
My personal preference is for a “straight wire with gain” kind of thing – adding random distortion in random places is unlikely to add up to the best result, unless you get really lucky, and if I do want that extra distortion, well, there are tools for that.
Don’t think anyone here can tell you for certain that you are going to love DAC X and hate DAC Y, especially in your system and in your room, but I would definitely try a transparent state of the art DAC and see if you like the general change it makes to the sound. If you have a local dealer that would let you audition one for a while. If you like what it does to the sound, then you can at least narrow the field and start looking for that kind of DAC that you like the best based on sound, integration, ergonomics, looks, etc. etc. If you go “meh” then ask to audition something different, that doesn’t go for transparency as much. Some people say they prefer ladder DACs like e.g. Denafrips. Those don’t measure too well compared to more common designs, but it could be that you find them more “analog”.