Thinking might provoke problems.
[Warning: Long rant below! But if you are reading this subject, you might still be interested. If not, please feel free to skip!]
I’d like to chime in with a request for folder browsing, too. For me folder browsing (like in Windows Explorer - with no metadata - just file info) is hands down the single most important feature request for Roon.
First things first:
Roon is absolutely brilliant in most respects. It is simply the best player I have encountered in so many ways. The powerful DSP/room correction. The ease of setting up my networked DAC and NAS. The speed of operation. The fact that playlists are an option (and not forced upon you like for example in FooBar). The neat playback screen. There are so many things to like - and in many cases it even looks great, too.
But the library I could very happily live without.
In my opinion a library makes it harder to find music, not easier. And in Roon’s case, it makes it harder than normal.
There are some obvious exceptions to this (find a particular artist on “various artist” albums for instance), but for me (maybe it’s just my collection?) a library just mess things up by forcing everything into a two level (artist/album) data model. Admittedly, the ‘Focus’ button could be used in certain situations, but that requires a lot of metadata to be in place. So far I have not managed to unleash the power of the ‘Focus’ function for everyday use.
Since most of the music I have bought the last ten years seem to be unrecognized by Roon, it requires a lifetime of manual, Roon-specific editing.
A bit about my music playng habits. I’m an old man (mid-50s) so I know the music (in the popular/progressive/electronic/underground category) from the early 70s to the mid-1990s very, very well. So I don’t actually need the bios and reviews that pop up when playing my old stuff. I know most of that already. My collection of music magazines, fanzines and books is probably as big as my record collection.
But in my old age I have changed listening habits considerably, so I rarely listen to my old heroes anymore - although it happens - so I don’t want to remove them from my collection.
However, the new music I listen to these days is typically single artists (in the direction of noise/experimental/electronic/minimal techno) with little relation to other artists - and I struggle remembering quite a few names. I ususually recognize them when I see them, though. So I just like to browse for music - not search.
My folder structure generally reflect how they are sorted in my physical collection.
I have 26+ top level folders (one each for A-Z plus a few extra (foreign characters, digits, record labels, odditites)
Below that I typically have:
Artist -> [Year] Release -> [Year] Label+Label number -> the audio files + extras
But not always - and that is the good thing about folders. They don’t need to fit into a specific data model - and can be sorted to a higher (or in a few cases lower) granularity with more or fewer levels as seems fit for that particular artist. And if the metadata aren’t perfect, it does not matter - the folder name usually says it all.
I will point to some examples where - in my opinion - folder structure is (much) better than a library.
- Artists working under (many) different names
I keep works by the same artist in one folder - usually the one I can remember.
So for example I have a folder for the techno artist Reeko, and besides the Reeko recordings, there are recordings of Architectural, Humano, Neither and Kevin Pearson. These are all the same person but Reeko is the most prolific and the name I can easily remember. And I have many, many folders like this.
But a library (not only Roon!) spreads out these artists all over the place - using the tagged artist names. Now, Roon actually has the functionality to link these. It offers (and attempts) to do it automatically. Sometimes it works but only in rare situations. Most seem to be unknown to Roon - so it is a slow and cumbersome process to get things sorted out. And I also need to correct the incorrectly identified artists (too many false positives for my liking). And the unsettling feeling that there may be more incorrectly identified artists is not good.
Another thing that makes this worse is that the well known albums I have in my collection (but rarely listen to anymore) have lots of metadata online. So when browsing, I regularly find some mysterious name wondering ‘who’s this’?, only to discover that it is some dude providing handclaps on track 2 on some famous album.
A well known single album can spawn lots of - for me - completely irrelevant artists in my artist list.
This means that the signal to noise ratio in my library is severely lowered by this - for me - undesirable feature. The obscure artists that I currently listen to are drowned out. I realize that for other people with different collections this may be great - but for me this is bad news.
In an attempt to avoid this spawning of extra artists I even set up a separate network with just my DAC, NAS and Roon PC - without any internet connection - to prevent online metadata to be read, but the benefits of being online outweighed the drawbacks of these extra artists so I reverted.
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Some labels have very unique/consistent musical style. So I have a few label folders. Again these artists (which I often don’t remember the names of) are being spread out throughout the library. And as I have not tagged these with label info (and Roon cannot provide label info from its databases) lots of grooming is needed.
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I keep biographies, discographies, recording details and other info in text files for each folder. These bios may come from the artist’s website. Some are emails directly from the artist, and cannot even be found online. In Windows Explorer I have these easily available (and - no - Roon does not find this info online for the artists in my collection. If I’m lucky I get bios like ‘From Belgium’ or something like that). I could of course create jpgs or pdf files for each text file so I could view them in Roon, but it is again some work - and I like the simplicity and speed of text files. And I have thousands of them.
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Some artists I have way too many albums of (200-600). For these I will typically have sub-folders for Albums, Singles, Compilations, Bootlegs, Live albums and sometimes more to cover odds and ends (e.g multiple different archicve series).
These I have painstakingly sorted. Compilation albums and live albums that essentialy are the same but have been released multiple times with different album name, different track order and year of release I have put as sub-folders below the common master folder. This is something I have already spent a lot of time working out, but this is lost in a library.
Still - not all compilation and live albums end up in the compilation and live albums folders. Some I have chosen to keep in the main album folder. And I want it that way!
But with a library I end up with a really (really) large unsorted collection. Lots and lots of these are not recognized by Roon (dubious legality on some of these, I guess). So I would have to do a lot of metadata grooming to get this moderately useable - but it would still not be able to offer me more than my folders. Probably less. In the end I always end up in Windows Explorer to find out - it is just easier/fewer operations to get the info that way.
So for much of my collection a library is counter-intuitive and just an obstacle to find the music I want - and I very rarely need the extra functionality that a library provides. Lots of solo artists with little or no interaction with others won’t benefit much from a library. I could of course spend the next two years adding Roon specific metatdata to all albums - but for me it would still not be as good as folder browsing.
But a text based ‘Windows explorer’ styled folder browsing would have been a dream (please no metadata substitution, linking of artists or similar - that would ruin it. Really! I just want to view the folders with the raw files).
Now - I must repeat what I said in the beginning of this rant:
Roon is otherwise superb. And I don’t want to remove the library!
I’m sure that most people love it and have that as their preferred interface. I am a software developer myself, and I am impressed by the ability of Roon’s library. It’s a major feat. But the library model simply does not fit all collections. And for those of us who actually want folder browsing, I’m sure it would be highly appreciated as an alternative way of interacting with your collection.
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Based on your use case I have to ask why you use Roon?
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You young people with your radical music…
That is really an unproductive question. I have raised very similar, although not as elegant, desires. Perhaps this time around people can leave off the nastiness? Not everyone uses Roon the same way. Further up in the thread you can see how I also browse based on visual memory and personal association.
Thanks Svein for taking the time to describe your needs.
Even so, the question is legit? Roon is not all things, to all people. “We” wouldn’t want that!
But @Svein misses one point, the are no such thing as “Roon specific tagging”! At least my collection manages just fine without extra grooming.
I can see some scenarios where it might be difficult to fit your collection into a Roon environment but also that these are probably very few in the big scope.
I still could imagine seeing a folder based browsing view in Roon though, but i really can live without it.
I recently purchased a Yamaha Wireless Streaming Pre Amplifier specifically to add to an old fashion Yamaha Stereo receiver. It specked very nice with the ability to stream Pandora, Spotify, Rhapsody, Sirius XM Internet Radio, Internet Radio (vTuner). Later this year Tidal is suppose to be available via firmware update.
It also made available all of my music files on my network. This is the same music I access through Roon.
All of this is done through an App via my phone and or tablet. iPhone and Droid.
When it came to accessing my network music files it was setup via Folder view. At first I thought that would be awesome because I was in the camp of folder view within Roon. After about 20 minutes of accessing my music which sounded great through the streamer coming out through my stereo for the first time ever became a pain in the a**.
Swipe swipe swipe swipe down. Swipe swipe swipe up. I have about 100,000 song library and when you try to navigate a library like this via folder view on a mobile or touch device is a pain indeed.
I then realized that folder view would really only be of real benefit if I were to be on my desktop PC. As far as a touch type device, this is work.
I was always in favor of folder views however 99.9% of my Roon use is from my PC. As Roon is developed, it is developed for multiple platforms and folder view would only be of use imo on a desktop and not practical on any touch device of any type.
MD
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Let me clarify, my question was not intended as a brusque snipe nor an unproductive one, it was and remans a sincere question. @Svein’s use case runs counter to just about everything that Roon delivers as far as its UI is concerned. No facetiousness intended, but given his use case it would seem that Roon is a very poor fit at least insofar as UI is concerned. Furthermore, if his playback is to a single endpoint and he’s not making use of DSP there are many software players out there that would be a better fit for his particular use case. @pwright92, I’m afraid your assumptions as to my motivation and intent were patently incorrect. I’ll be sure to spell things out in flowery prose going forward so you’re left with no doubt where I’m coming from.
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Thanks for all the feedback here.
I’ll try to address some of the comments here.
- Based on my case - why do I use Roon?
I bought Roon after evaluating it in in my listening room - where there is a NAS and a networked DAC. The music on my NAS is mostly my old music - and to a large extent identified by Roon. I was not too happy about the library, but I could live with it.
But apart from the UI/library it was top of the line! And it was certainly not worse than the other players I’ve tried in the UI department. Different, fun - not ideal - but certainly not worse.
I have my Roon Core installed on my laptop, and I commute on a weekly basis. So I bring my new music (not the stuff on the NAS) on a copule of external hard drives. That is when I first realised the more problematic sides mentioned in my previous posts.
But I have never found any even half-decent folder based player - so why not go with Roon - which is superb in every other aspect?
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Re: Roon specific tagging
Sorry - that was not a precise way of putting it. What I meant was I would have to apply properies like “live”, “bootleg”, “compilation” inside Roon. Linking different albums (that essentially are the same) together. Similarly, I believe I’ll have to apply record label for the albums in the various label folders (and correct a lot of incorrect labels) inside Roon.
I’d also need to link together the different pseudonyms/monikers an artist has worked under.
Most of this is probably possible - but it is a lot of (unnecessary) work.
But please correct me if I’m wrong here. -
Folder view on phone/tablets
I fully agree with @Mike_Dubois here. Folder view is probably not something that works too well on small devices without arrow keys/mouse. To some extent I guess it depends on how your folders are organized (I only have 26+ top level folders), but I see it can become a challenge to get a good interface there.
But for Roon Core it should be feasible. We already have Windows Explorer (and Explorer++) as a proof of concept of how efficient this navigation is.
I’m perfectly fine with this being a Roon Core option only. -
@evand
I do indeed use the DSP (but yep - only to a single endpoint).
But I’m curious - what players out there are better? I have tried quite a few.
For folder navigation, Windows Explorer/Explorer++ beats all players that in some way supports “folders” that I have tried - no contest. I must admit I have not tried Jriver, though.
But please enlighten me. -
Finally, to address the “‘we’ wouldn’t want that!” part.
I am fully aware of this! And I don’t want to ruin anything for anyone.
So here’s what I had in mind:
By default Roon would install, look and behave exactly as it does now.
But what I would like to see was an option to select a different view / mode.
You might then go into the settings to modify this and get a folder view that would replace the current view. But unless you do that, there would be no difference from today.
So most Roon users would not even need to be aware that this mode existed.
But having a second way to interact with you collection would be appreciated by many.
In my opinion, it would even be a selling point! No other player that I am aware of provide decent folder playing.
So my question is: is there any reason why Roon shouldn’t excel in this area, too?
Remember - the direction that music is going these days - where “everyone” releases music - and in different formats (downloads, LP, CD-R, cassette) - outside of the major labels (and also outside of Spotify/Tidal/Apple Music - and Allmusic), it will be an uphill battle for Roon to remain updated. Having a second way of organising your collection could be a crucial advantage.
And thanks to @pwright92 for the support! I don’t feel quite alone now 
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Roon also supports using the imbedded file tags, there are guides in the Roon Knowledge Base
I guess Roonlabs have to weigh up the cost / benefit of adding support for this against other potential development work.
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Kind of. It doesn’t support custom embedded tags or allow you to sort by them directly. This is one area of tag functionality I’d like to see expanded.
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Nicely explained. I’m facing a lot of the same problems. Roon is great in a lot of features but it messes up my collection almost beyond recognition. The album browser is pretty useless, so I just never ever use it.
I like Roon for it’s crosslinks an Tidal integration (altough not nearly deep enough) but when I just want to “browse” my collection I switch over to my sweet old MP3Toys, just way better for that. Most importantly because MP3Toys has the very powerfull function to let me define all the content in a directory as an “Album” This tiny simple feature alone solves soooo many problems that I’m having with the Roon database. Secondly becuase the albums browser let’s me vew the content of the album in the browser without having to click on it. Helps a LOT in identifying that one album you where looking for. Third is how Roon and a lot of other payers handle Various artists albums. When they are not recognized by Roon as a various artist album it get’s spread out over 10 albums in the two dimensional artist/album way. That’s a mess and is very hard to correct within the Roon database. Again, letting me decide what I and noone else calls an album fixes this instantly. This way it’s organized completely automatic the way I want it. I really do not want to spend months in retagging files just so Roon can recognize and handle them, I allready had things organized in a for me totally perfect logical way. That’s also a reason why some kind of album browsing is a so much desired feature. If Roon was perfect it wpouldn’t be needed but unfortantly, depsite the fact I really like Roon, it is still far from perfect. Wasn’t Roon main slogan “Get connected with your music collection again” ?
Just came across this thread. Apologies if the same point is buried upstream.
+1 for folder view.
A lot of strong opinions here. My plea is for those struggling with a large private library migration. Everything I need to make a migration possible (windows explorer, foobar, cueTools, dBpoweramp, mp3tag, iso2dsd), works on a folder paradigm except roon. It is a real pain and really slows things up constantly swapping between a “folder” and a “focus” philosophy. I am about 18 months into a JRiver migration so I guess I am “committed” but I have a long way to go and anything that would improve my grooming productivity would be welcome.
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+1 for folder view too.
I have spend HOURS organizing my library on my HD by folders.
I agree that 90% of the time I will use ROON’s curent view by artist, genre, albums…etc, BUT… sometime I want to search by folder. For example I have music stored in folders of the name of the friend who provided me those track. If this friend comes home or if I want to listen to a track that I remember was given by let"s say NICOLAS, I will go to NICOLAS’s folder. Or I also have folder named “TEST tracks” or “Bits rate comparaison”… and I need to just try those tracks…
So, please add the OPTION to view the library also by folder. My “old” Auralic Aries provide this Folder view in addition to artist, genre, albums…etc
tanks in advance
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I’m not knocking your request … however, I would use tagging to do that, then you just filter on that NICOLAS, TEST, … tag.
This will likely never happen with the current Roon incarnation as I have detected a non-subtle philosophy against folder view. If you review the posts on it, folder view is “harmful” and there are many multi-step workarounds suggested that don’t quite get you there. To play any file, you MUST add it to your library and it MUST be able to be located by metadata other than how you store it.
I believe the workarounds are offered in good faith, but I find it silly that there need to be workarounds for something so straightforward.
To listen to a 40 second bass drop my 11 year-old created, I had to add it to my library. Then I had to remember to remove it. While I love Roon from many angles, that’s just a silly workflow.
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you are right, and this is the reason why, with my Auralic Aries, I stick so far with their proprietary Lightning DS app that offer " browse by folder" tab in addition to “genre”, “artists”; “tracks”, “last imported”… So simple ! !
a shame because the Aries can also be used as a roon endpoint, but… no folder mode, no usage…
see screen shot here, at the bottom of the list : https://cdn.head-fi.org/a/10058135.png
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I don’t think Roon was designed for this use case. But you can add and label anything.
Roon could easily add it. The technical challenges stated were, to me, straw man arguments. I’d be fine if folder view was from the POV of the Roon core so that the developers don’t have to worry about file paths from the local machine’s POV. This was the main technical objection, IIRC.
I think the concern is that Roon becomes “me too” if it can be used in this manner - it would not force people to adopt the Roon paradigm.
A little bit of the Billy Goat Tavern: “Chips, no fries…Pepsi, no Coke…”**
**See Saturday Night Live, circa 1977…
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