Classical Metadata is (still) a big mess

(Daniel Margoliash) #47

Getting back to the original issue, I think a great “temporary” solution is for Roon to allow us access to our manually curated hierarchically organized playlists. Super fast access to exactly the music you want exactly the way you want it organized. Such a playlist structure has essentially zero metadata errors (i.e. user errors, and each of those you fix - exactly once - when you find them).
If you have two ways you like to listen to Chopin etudes, and Roon browsing is not up to the task: no problem, two separate playlists. Three clicks away “Classical” “Chopin” “Etudes”, then pick the playlist that fits your mood.

(Ged) #48

That doesn’t fix metadata problems does it? Just puts things in lists.

(Mike O'Neill) #49

I see the point , I suppose spilt by individual etude is most flexible, you can always pick one go to an album and play all if you wish

My concern is that if you leave Roon to sort it out you get a mix of the 2 styles

Manual grooming again, and it’s the same with much of Chopin as if whoever populates the data can’t make their mind up

Alas ( seems to be word of the month)

(Andre Gosselin) #50

Interesting idea. Could you elaborate a bit more on how you actually maintain your playlist hierarchy, and how you would like to interface it with Roon ?

(Klaus) #51

I have to admit I never thought about playlists in this case. For me it was more a decision about how I want to see compositions on the composer page. Chopin is a very good example for that, since there are so many recordings of single pieces out there that are grouped under single opus numbers.
I have found the metadata from Roon to be very inconsistent in terms of single vs. group composition.
So I decided to approach my file tags with some more consistency. At the beginning I had grouped them, i.e. WORK=Etudes (12) for piano, Op. 10 and PART=single etude.
What I ended up with was a very “mixed” display on the composer page, i.e. complete recordings and single recordings mixed up. It was not very easy to see which single etudes were played for the “non-complete” recordings.
So I decided to change my approach. Today I have most of these kind of compositions tagged the other way round, i.e. WORK=single piece. In order to have Roon not to override with its metadata, I had to set Composition to “Prefer File”. This is what works for me now.
Is it perfect? Most probably not. But I could easily add another file tag for the group and whenever Roon decides to support these hierarchical issues, I hope that I can adjust my tagging easily…

(Mike O'Neill) #52

Just trying that on etudes, copy track name toWork and sort out what a mess

What consistency of track titles ugh …

It does seem the best way it but most work

(Ged) #53

Until I started reading the forum and the trials and tribulations of the Classical users I had no idea it was so complicated. I’ve had to sit with a search engine to understand some of the arcana.
There seem to be any number of favoured solutions/conventions/inventions of naming, assigning parts/works/variations on a theme, should composer or orchestra or conductor drive identification. Never mind boxsets and music labels republishing, compressing parts, breaking parts.
I’m amazed any computer based system comes anywhere working with this complete swamp.
Never mind the special mindsets of some of the collectors/attenders of detail that use them

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(Mike O'Neill) #54

It can be done manually with custom tags but life is too short

I still love the adventure of finding a piece to listen :cowboy_hat_face:

Metadata really doesn’t help, Chopin to Led Zeppelin to Beethoven well…

(Mike O'Neill) #55

My favorite quote

Ask 10 Classical devotees how to Tag and sort the output And you’ll get 12 opinions

(Klaus) #56

fair point, but if Roon goes south I still can browse my library using my tags… and I had also done most of it pre-Roon anyway. I also like to do tagging. It is my way of finding hidden treasures in my library…:wink:
Looking at the existing metadata inconsistencies in Roon when already having most of file tags to my liking made the decision easier for me.
But I do understand when people don‘t want to go down that path. Live and let live…:grin:

(Daniel Margoliash) #57

Depends what you are trying to do. If the playlists help you find your music to play, and that is your goal, then you don’t care if there is embedded metadata problem. You browse in a way that makes sense to you, no albums or performances are “lost” even in a big collection, and you quickly get to the piece that you want to hear, and then hear it.

You do care if you are using the metadata to search/browse. I am not proposing a solution to that.

(Daniel Margoliash) #58

(I’m not an iTunes fan, please!) but iTunes does this very well. I have a root directory with all the big subdivisions I am interested in. What do I want to hear at the moment: Rock? Jazz? Fusion (my definition thereof)? Folk? Classical? and so on. Note all these can be changed deleted added at any point. If I click on Rock I see all my albums plus a 2nd tier of the hierarchy: Beatles, Stones, Clapton, Dead, etc. (some would argue Dead should elsewhere, which is exactly why this should be manually curated. You do it your way, I do it mine.) Click on the Dead, and I see all my Dead albums. For Rock, almost always I want to hear (or select from) an entire album, and for some albums I will want to edit out certain tracks. Easy with playlists.

OK I picked Rock on purpose, because I really want to talk about Classical. It works for both. For Classical, the 2nd tier can be period or composer or both, of course. You will probably want the greats up there (Mozart, Bach, Beethoven…) but if you have dozens or more of Baroque composers you probably want them in their own separate folder, or folder and subfolders, organized by what makes the most sense to you. At the bottom of the Classical hierarchy, depending on the piece and the album I organize by composition, or performer, or album. I can think about what I want to hear at a high level, and then get to a specific performance at the bottom level, all very quickly. I don’t have 10k albums, but I think it would work well for a large collection, unless you need to look at 1k albums before you pick the one you want. Maybe you need to browse 50 albums (or pieces). And note, once you put in the work to organize something it should never go away, never get automatically “corrected” (read, messed up).

OK, how to implement in Roon UI? I think conceptually it is simple. In the playlists display, there’s all the room in the world, indeed it seems rather bare to me. So put the hierarchical list on the left side (expanding and collapsing as you click through playlist folders), and at each level of the hierarchy just display that subset of albums (to the right of the playlist display). Once you get to a playlist or set of playlists at the bottom, then display those tracks. Allow searching, focus, etc within subsets of playlists to make it even more powerful. Import hierarchical playlists from iTunes. Expose the playlist hierarchy when you want to add a new albums to your lists. Of course, allow you to edit your playlists, folders, etc. And don’t ever automatically change the contents; only the user gets to do that. Manually curated hierarchical playlists.

(Andre Gosselin) #59

I appreciate that you took time to explain your point of view. It makes sense when you consider that hierarchically maintained playlists let you define arbitrary groups or object that help you browse your library in a way that is meaningful to you, and that do not interfere with Roon behavior. In fact, I am using a similar approach, based on MediaMonkey playlist capabilities.

Maybe I am over-optimistic, but I think it should be possible to allow a playlist hierarchy in Roon.

(Mike O'Neill) #60

CRoon simply does not allow customization other than Tags and Bookmarks, I haven’t used playlists

I use JRiver as well where you have a large degree of customization including a Rules Engine.

I can split by Genre , create a sub set as Classical using a rule, even to the point of a super set of composers, Bach, Beethoven etc leaving out the minor ones

Custom Tags allow box sets to be managed with ease

Surely this level of customization should be possible based on Roon’s Object model

I am still lured by the UI and metadata but I often wonder …

It’s not ideal but I use both systems depending on what I am doing

(Daniel Margoliash) #61

It is easy to implement in Roon (modulo a zillion other meaningful feature requests, bugs, etc), but it goes against the philosophy / design decisions Roon made. There, I think the mistake is to lump browsing one’s own music with browsing for new music. That superficial similarity is utterly misleading. Clear evidence: there are a great many posts throughout multiple topics where dissatisfied Roon users are doing the same thing, using outside software to maintain their ability to browse their own music. Those same users like Roon Radio, Tidal integration, etc. I don’t know if Roon developers will ever consider doing playlist right, but at least I am getting payback by learning about alternative solutions to iTune: MediaMonkey is the latest. Thanks for that! Cheers.

(JohnV) #62

Daniel, Roon does not recognize folder location or folder titles for organization or retrieval purposes. However it does have focus, search, bookmarks, and tags to perform the location and browsing function.

These tools, after an adjustment period, have allowed me ample browsing capabilities for my library. I would not consider going back to iTunes.

(Daniel Margoliash) #63


The issues I am raising is that Roon ignores highly personally meaningful and manually curated information that many users have and want access to, that as best as I can see it would be easy to implement in Roon while enhancing - not disrupting - the UI, and that the failure to provide this feature is based on adherence to a design decision (dogma) that is wrong. Saying that Roon does not recognize hierarchical information for retrieval purposes is saying Roon does not recognize tree structures for retrieval purposes. Roon is good, but they have not reinvented CS. Tree structures are useful, in this case the best approach for many users.

This has nothing to do with iTunes v. Roon! I am glad that Roon is working for you, but in this and several other threads there are many individuals who express the same perspective I am raising. And they are long time users of Roon who are frustrated about this issue. They maintain lists on iTunes, MediaMonkey, JRiver, and others no doubt, and use those lists to find the music they want, before awkwardly using that info to find the selections in Roon to listen to. So I am pleased that music retrieval on Roon works for you, but it does not work for others. How many of course I cannot say.

Thinking about this issue, I am wondering if the current approach in Roon works well for some types of listening preferences and some types of music but not others. It seems irrelevant to dig deeper, however, unless there is some indication that the developers are listening, and care.

(Andre Gosselin) #64

The issue has nothing to do with ITunes, but with Roon inefficiencies. These tools (tags, playlists, bookmarks, etc) could be made much more useful if some form of hierarchy could be implemented in the UI to manage them. Nice to have playlists or tags in Roon, but since they are presented strictly as flat lists, they can quickly become unmanageable when their number increase. I could easily have thousand of tags in Roon, but browsing and searching them would become very painfull. A hierarchy would help organize them and make them much more enjoyable.

1 Like
(Frans ) #65

Dear united Roon Users,

How do you force Roon to show all the albums of a CD box (e.g. an opera or the collected works of Szell …) separately instead of a list of CD 1, cd 2 cd 3 …etc with no art, and often even no mention of the work (all the works) on the CD.
It sometimes does do so (all albums separate entries) but often, it doesn’t.
How can you trigger this phenomenon?
Roon still has a lot of secrets which I don’t know yet. I hope to discover more and more in the future with your valued help.

Frans Gommers

How to link correct composition
(Daniel Margoliash) #66

I am far from sure, but I believe the correct general answer is that you don’t. You can’t. What it shows depends on metadata - too often wrong - that it imports, and decisions made on what constitutes a work. Effectively you cannot correct the metadata, or change the decision structure, or impose your own structure. I think your best approach is to make a playlist in Roon (or outside of Roon that it will then import). But playlists are not particularly well supported in Roon. And then some but not all of your music will be best found in playlists. Or make a playlist for each work. But then you have a lot of playlists. Roon treats those playlists as one long list - a flat file. What is Roon’s own definition of such flat file structure? “Meh”