Classical Navigation - The need for an Artist "works recorded" section

Agreed Klaus and Mike. As a tag manipulation program, JRiver is better than anything. And once you understand how to set up custom tags and views, you can get exactly the experience @woodford describes, and more. What JR doesn’t have is the simplicity of automatic metadata assignment (when it works), or the ability to combine streaming services and local files into one seamless library, which is the biggest utility of Roon for me.

In some ways JR is the opposite of Roon: somewhat complex to set up, visually unattractive, but very usable for navigating a classical library. By contrast Roon, at least for a classical listener, too often seems like a triumph of “design” over comprehension and basic usability. For me the first order job of a music management app is not to turn my library into a magazine or digital coffee table book, it’s to empower navigation and rediscovery of the library I’ve already curated. The visuals and extraneous content are very nice, but not when they get in the way.

For instance, let’s look at what I have to do to successfully navigate the pattern woodford describes that starts with the composer. I can start with Composers view, or with Compositions view. Either way, I either scroll endlessly or type in a search to get to Tchaikovsky. Now I have to get to Orchestral, which is a subgenre in Composer but an Instrumentation label in Compositions, very unreliably assigned and not editable. If I click on the Orchestral subgenre under Tchaikovsky, I don’t get his Orchestral compositions, I get instead some blather about Orchestral generally. Focus is not available under a specific Composer view for some reason, so I can’t use that either. At least, I can scroll down past the list of albums and get to a list of Tchaikovsky compositions in my library, and I don’t have a huge number of Tchaikovsky compositions, so I can find Suite #3 without too much trouble. Back to the Compositions view: I’ve gone through the trouble of assigning Tags for different combinations of form and instrumentation, so I can use Focus to pull up the Orchestral tag and narrow down the compositions list to quickly get Suite #3.

Follow me so far? By either path, I’ve gotten to Tchaikovsky Composition Suite #3! Just click on it and I’ll see all of the recorded performances in my library, right? Silly me, not so fast. First, I have to scroll past algorithmically determined quasi-advertisements for popular performers, conductors, and other compositions by Tchaikovsky that I might click on once in a few hundred times - I’m a long time Classical listener, there is literally zero new information for me in those listings. Roon badly needs an ad blocker. But at least now I’ve gotten to a list of recordings - hundreds of them. Click on the little icon that means “library”, which is apparently never remembered as a default, and I’m there! The list of recordings of Tchaikovsky’s Suite #3 in my library.

Take any other path that woodford describes, and you get a similar experience. If you really want to make serious Classical listeners happy, streamline those paths, and make every bit of metadata involved easily editable for both individual and multiple selections.

All of this said, I do want to make the point that we Classical listeners are not an incorrigible lot that will never be happy. Pay attention to some of these basic interaction patterns, and those of us who have been users since the beginning will be thrilled! And there are things in 1.8, particularly in Focus, that are a step forward. And finally I’d say that much of the Classical effort in 1.8 is clearly targeted at discovery for newer Classical listeners with streaming services, an absolutely noble and important goal and one that clearly involved quite a lot of work. Just don’t forget about those of us who are way beyond discovery and well into passion :slight_smile:

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Personally, I don’t care too much for the added metadata if it is handled in the way Roon does it. Too much magic happening. Call me a control freak but I like to have control over my data and I like to understand what’s happening automatically and why. :wink:

Streaming is also not too big on my agenda, but I understand the appeal.

What I like best about Roon is the visual display of information, respecting the work/movement structure, the concept of a relational DB style display and navigation of objects like composer, performer, work etc.

However, the underlying DB structure seems not to be really relational. I’m in no way an DB expert, but I think some of the feature requests would be very easy to implement were it for an relational DB. Since those feature requests get ignored constantly, my guess it, that the looks suggest an underlying design which is not there. That’s wildly speculative, of course.

My dream application always was looking similar to Roon but with much more user control. In my dream you would have the possibility to maintain a composer/work/ database and just assign objects from there to the recordings. Of course with the help of tag mapping. I will never get there, but you can keep dreaming, can’t you?

I don’t think it’s a database problem - the relationships are clearly there. It’s an Experience Design problem, XD as we call it in the industry. Roon has a couple of XD philosophies/principles that come across clearly, whether they think about them explicitly or not. One principle centers on creating rich experiences around the “nouns” - Artists, Albums, Genres, Composers, etc. Another principle is to minimize “meta experiences”, all of the experiences like tagging, view creation, display options, etc that go into creating the final navigation experience. This is all fine insofar as it goes. Where things break down for us in Classical is in interaction design, especially the interactions between the nouns in various usage patterns.

The fundamental difference with Classical compared to Pop is that there is no single dominant hierarchy to the information. With Pop you have Artist->Album->Song. Sometimes you add Genre to the front of that, and then you have a bunch of secondary information like performers, credits, etc that get handled nicely through Focus. With Classical on the other hand, you start with any of the major nouns and then mix and match from there as you navigate or (re)discover. This is why the old pane/list style of navigation is still appreciated by us. The closest Roon has is the Compositions view, but that is half-baked in important ways (like editing Form and Instrumentation). I suspect Roon designers are somewhat allergic to grid/list navigation paradigms and so Compositions gets little attention.

As I note above, there could be a lot of streamlining done to common navigation interactions without giving up and making it look like iTunes ca. 2005. Here’s hoping some of that happens!

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That’s what puzzled me since the introduction of this view. How can you not make all things editable and/or subject to focus. It’s like stopping your design at 70% completion. Composition view is a complete wasted opportunity.

I usually like Roons way of presenting the data. It’s just not very good at interacting with me - just as you said. It forces metadata on me that I may not want (stupid AllMusic reviews, funny primary artists) while at the same time not allowing me to define them myself. It’s a database for “lazy people” (no pun intended) who are happy with what they get. It’s always “rubbish in, rubbish out”. The more effort I put in my data the more I get out of it. I do get this with JRiver but don’t get it with Roon. But for somebody who didn’t “invest” on metadata as much 80% looks close enough to perfection.

I don’t want to generalize too much, but it’s funny that people investing incredible amounts of money to get minuscule improvements in audio quality are not as scrupulous when it comes to metadata.
It’s both a 1st world problem and not inherently necessary to enjoy the music but still makes me wonder when people ask me to not be so obsessed with my metadata… :wink:

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With my smallish (in absolute terms, although I think it’s fairly extensive) collection I didn’t expect to fall victim to this one, but only a little searching returned troubling results. John Barbirolli recordings missed the Elgar Cello Concerto and Sea Pictures. A search on Georg Solti picked up Tosca (good) but was pointing towards Vissi d’arte on a Kiri The Kanawa compilation disc and completely missed the complete recording. Switching to albums on these two artists showed the missing items. It took me about two minutes to find these two examples which suggests time that every artist will have gaps in this Recordings view.

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Yes as has been pointed out it gets much worse if you have guys like André Previn or Leonard Bernstein who happen to be composers and artists. Their entire catalogue as artist vanishes into a huge black hole…

But apart from that, I really dont know whats going on for some of those others that did not compose and still parts of their catalogue / library is gone… Barbirolli didnt write cadenzas afaik.

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But that’s a known issue that needs fixing , its not a design flaw , its just broken

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I am not getting your Barbirolli example

Follow this

Artist > Filter = ‘barb’

Click on Barbirolli
I get

a few key strokes etc – am I missing the point ? Yes you have to scroll past the “popular” stuu but once past the albums are there

I don’t have Solti’s Tosca to test , the “one aria / complete work” scenario is still an issue I agree

Try

Artist> Filter =‘Solt’
Discography
Filter =‘Tosca’

I see the complete opera in Tidal

Not perfect but this is streets ahead of 1.7 IMHO

Yeah - there’s nothing that can’t be found using the albums view. And I agree that 1.8 is a big step forward. It would be nice though to see the Recordings view return full results for the artist.

in the history of streaming music, not one person has searched for Vissi D’arte by typing “Tosca Solti”.

so why present it as the first result?

same with Nessun Dorma. if I type “Turandot Mehta” I don’t expect a Pavarotti Greatest Hits album as the first, or even most popular, result.

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Thx for the answers on tagging software.