I’m experiencing frequent dropout at variable intervals which has been challenging to diagnose. The bright and intuitive tech who set up my system feels that my Nucleus may be overwhelmed. His premise is based on the fact that I have six separate zones running three setup variants;
Two zones of networked streamers running three pairs of in-ceiling speakers, each on a separate stereo amp and two floor speakers, each on a monoblock.
Three zones of RAAT wifi speakers ( a zone of one pair and two zones of individual speakers in utility areas).
One high-end audio system with a USB connection from Nucleus to DAC.
He believes that an upgrade from a Nucleus to a Nucleus Plus will provide the additional processing horsepower required to sort through all this zone complexity in combination with a NAS based library of 25k tracks + Quobuz/Tidal. Has anyone had related experiences or any intuition that this might be a suitable (costly) solution.
Yes, the entire house (all zones) play from a single source simultaneously. Dropout occurs regardless of which zones are active. Internet connection is fiber and the IT tech tells me there are no dips. Thank you.
The key is to systematically isolate individual variables that contribute to the problems you are experiencing. As @Suedkiez is suggesting, I would indeed try to troubleshoot this by starting with something the puts a minimal load on the Nucleus. In other words, streaming to a single zone, without any DSP on the core. I would try this independently with local content and streaming.
If that works well, you can start thinking of systematically adding some load and rerunning the test with local and streaming content independently. E.g. by adding a zone or adding DSP. Continue to build up the load until you find a breaking point.
Has this system ever worked properly or has it been like this from installation?
You don’t mention router or switch details. What are those devices? Are you streaming at high bitrate or up sampling and using DSP to all zones simultaneously ? Has the tech looked at the Nucleus and router logs for clues? 25k isn’t a large library. What NAS is it?
Problem is the ‘intuitive tech’ doesn’t know what is going on inside the Nucleus as it provides no performance information to users. He may from experience be recommending a more powerful device as a server, but that is all he has to go on if anything.
A big and complicated house and I can’t answer specifics re: router and switches but router firmware has been updated and I assume that these are relatively passive elements in the equation. To answer what I can, DSP only being used for the three pairs of in-ceiling speakers on the individual BelCanto amps. Haven’t reviewed logs and the NAS is QNAP. I’m an American living in an isolated corner of the German speaking Italian Alps. There isn’t a qualified Roon or high-end tech for hundreds of km, I’m an amateur and my installer is based in London. Not so easy! But thank you.
Depends on the router and switches and how they are configured. In fact, routers are the most active devices in a network, as they “route” traffic between networks. They can be configured in a simple way (“if the traffic has no recipient here on the LAN, send it to the internet” but they can also be arbitrarily complex - the internet is essentially many smaller networks that are connected by routers.
Thank you for taking an interest in this nuisance of mine…I really appreciate it. I spent five years building a complex home and went to great pains to choose my audio equipment carefully; Nagra, Stenheim, BelCanto, Revox…and planned very carefully. In the end, in a house laden with systems, this is the only troublemaker.
I don’t want to encroach on your time, but if you could give me some guidance for the uninitiated I would be thankful. In my simplistic view the straight line diagnostic methodology would be to ungroup my zones and to play each zone independently for 24-48 hours with Tidal and Quobuz active. If no dropout occurs in one zone, I’d move on to the next zone. Digital radio has never been an issue and the dropout comes in rashes and is consistently evidenced by “slow loading” messages so I think the question of source is addressed with the streaming services engaged. If I get through this matrix without dropout it seems that the problem is due to some combination of conditions; multiple zones of different sorts (USB cabled Nucleus to DAC on the Nagra, network on the BelCanto and Wifi on the RAAT speakers) playing simultaneously and overwhelming the Nucleus seeming the likely case. How would one isolate the issue in this instance? Any advice for the amateur would be a blessing. Thank you again. Michael
I think we need to take it step by step as providing a scenario for each possibility is probably very time consuming, overwhelming and not very efficient.
As you mentioned in your reply, playing each zone independently for some time is indeed a good first step. I believe 24 to 48 hours is quite long. Potentially you wouldn’t need as long. This all depends on what exactly you mean by “frequent dropout at variable intervals”. If, on average, this occurs multiple times every few hours, then in a first stage it probably suffice to run this for a few hours in each zone. If you experiencing this once or twice a day, then a 24 hour test per zone would indeed be more advisable.
Also, I would start by testing your high-end audio system with a USB connection from Nucleus to DAC. If this runs ok, then we have confirmation that your internet connection to your Nucleus is working as expected, and that your Nucleus is capable of “standard” operation, and we can move on to testing a next zone. If it fails, then we can concentrate on the internet to Nucleus connection. Also if possible, I would try to run a test in which you only play music from the NAS, and a separate test in which you only play from Tidal/Qobuz.
Maybe one other question? Are all your Roon devices on a wired network connection or is there also wifi involved? My apologies if you already mentioned this and I missed it.
three Belcanto stereo amps and two streamers wired to three pairs of Revox plastered-in speakers.
two Belcanto monoblocks + DAC wired to a pair of Stenheim Alumines.
In my office I have the Nucleus connected by data cable to the NAS and by USB cable to a Nagra DAC + full Nagra setup with monoblocks powering another pair of Alumines.
And then four Blusound RAAT wireless speakers in utility areas.
The Bel Canto streamers and the Nucleus are hard-wired into the network.
The Bluesound are the only thing that’s wireless,
(Along with your iPhone as a remote control.)
As you’ve said, WiFi and network are the same thing, and serve the same purpose, however WiFi has more equipment in the communication chain, and it uses the air as a communication medium, and so is often less reliable and less fast than a direct cable-connection.
For the Bel canto:
Router >>> network switch >>>Bel Canto streamer
All of these connections are with a data cable.
For the Bluesound:
Router >>> network switch >>> wireless access point ~~~ Blusound
The rest are data cables. The nucleus is the same as the Bel Canto.
Hope that’s somewhat clear. Thus far I’ve run the Revox, Nagra and Blusound independently without issue.
Thank you for giving more detail on the setup. It’s perfectly clear. Also thank you for confirming that, independently, your different zones are working fine.
Considering that, so far, everything is working as expected, the good news is that your basic connection appears to be stable. Chances are indeed that your Nucleus could be choking when playing to all zones at once.
For a next test, I would suggest by putting some more load on the Nucleus, and some more load on the Network. I would suggest four tests, similar in length to what you have been doing. Start with test 1, when successful proceed with test 2, and so on for tests 3and 4
Test 1 - Grouping the USB wired DAC with the mono blocks and 2 hardwired (no WiFi) streamers with the 3 stereo amps that drive the Revox speakers. Test 2 - Grouping the Bluesound RAAT WiFi speakers Test 3 - Grouping the USB wired DAC with the mono blocks and the Bluesound RAAT WiFi speakers. Test 4 - Grouping the 2 hardwired streamers with stereo amps and the Bluesound RAAT WiFi speakers. So everything except the USB DAC with the mono blocks.
With test 1 the aim is to put some more load on your Nucleus, but keeping it to the wired network only. With test 2 I want to see what happens to the WiFi when putting some more traffic on that. Test 3 will again put more load on the Nucleus without additional network impact. Test 4 is adding more load on the Nucleus and network.
One final note. I just noticed that you mention that your have:
1 USB wired DAC
2 network wired streamers with stereo amps
4 Bluesound speakers
If these are all seen as individual zones by the Nucleus, that means you are trying to drive 7 zones, which would indeed be beyond the specified “up to 6 simultaneous zones” for the Nucleus. The Nucleus+ lists “more than 6 simultaneous zones”. You can confirm this in the Nucleus Feature and Nucleus Plus Features section of the following page:
Can you supply a screen grab of Roons signal path when playing to all zones, one for each zone whilst it’s dropping out This will help show if it’s struggling to perform as it will show the processing speed which is vital. Anything below 1.5 and you’re in danger territory.
On the plane to the States today and will resume diagnostics next Thursday.
For sake of specificity, zones are:
Main room floor (Bel Canto monoblocks + Stenheim)
Main room ceiling ( 3 x Bel Canto stereo amps + Revox)
Stube (Nagra + Stenheim)
Laundry ( 1 Blusound)
Workshop (1 Blusound)
Garage ( 2 Blusound)
So in fact it is six zones based on my count, but my intuition is that the Nucleus could be overwhelmed with all this cross traffic of zones, sources and setup.
Maybe there is a lack of knowledge on my part, but I have the impression there may be a different interpretation for what a “zone” actually is. Perhaps also good to share a screenshot of the Settings > Audio section in Roon when you get back.
I always defined a zone as a particular room or in the case of my main room (floor + ceiling) an output. I play my entire house as a single group of the individual 6 “zones”. Is this an accurate interpretation in your view.
I’m afraid not. A Zone in Roon is actually an audio device set up as an endpoint. It’s true that Roon Labs muddy the water themselves by saying that a Zone can also be thought of as a room, but if you have several audio devices set up as Roon endpoints in a room, then each of them is a separate Zone…
Thank you Geoff…I’m very appreciative of all this good direction. Given the fact that I experience no dropout with digital radio and Sven’s observation that I’m exceeding the six device limit of the Nucleus my amateur intuition is that the Plus is the answer. Thank you again.
To those of you who assisted, thank you all for your kindness.
It seems that the problem was the DPS I was using in a single zone (of three amps) . Once deactivated, dropout ceased (at least for the time being). Apparently this DPS zone was the last straw.
One question; my high-end dealer in Zurich tells me that Roon will launch replacements for Nuclues and Nucleus Plus this autumn. Any news on this?