Crazy digital audio theories

The way to peddle a crazy theory (or a device based on a crazy theory) is to sprinkle it with scientific-sounding talk, some that is correct but irrelevant, some that sounds plausible but is unproven, some that sounds plausible but is wrong, and the final conclusion that sounds crazy but gets its credibility from the others.

Like astrology: people used to just make claims, but when people objected on scientific grounds, they would say that it is not scientifically unreasonable that the gravitational influence from the big planets like Jupiter, and from the stars in the galaxy which are arranged in a flat plane (the Milky Way), that this influence at the moment of birth would affect the developing nerves in the brain and thus influence your evolving personality. Except, if we do the math we realize that the gravitational influence from the midwife or doctor is much greater than that of Jupiter or the Milky Way. But “gravitational influence on the nervous system” sounds better than “just trust the cards and Madame Carlotta”.

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I have nothing to add to this thread but I just wanted to say that I am enjoying it immensely. Brilliant posts chaps/chappettes.

Warning: adult language and 1990s sensibilities.

I agree, there is a LOT of craziness in the audiophile community, but just because one doesn’t understand why something may occur doesn’t mean it isn’t occurring. On the surface audio electronics is fairly simple but if you dive in you will discover it is far too complex for most to wrap their head around. Simple example… most will talk about about electricity in terms of current flow which they incorrectly believe to be the flow of electrons through wires like water through a pipe.

If old enough, you will recall in the early 1980s when the crazy theory that cables could make a difference was dismissed by most. “It is just wire. how can it possibly matter?” Concerning switches, it makes sense to me that a cheap switch injecting RF into a system might affect the sound.

I’m not saying everything mentioned is valid, but some of the things dismissed above can easily be heard if you have a system capable of resolving the differences. I would venture that many do not have such a system and so gleefully poke fun at things they can’t hear and don’t understand. I’ll take that a step further. I bet most who are gleefully poking fun have not tried any of the things they are calling crazy. On the bright side, they do retain a lot of their money if they don’t buy in.

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I can agree that well engineered cable and the like make a difference but that’s as far as I will go, in fear of my wallet.
My rational is living a life listening to music and I have never had it so good. Also the way ordinary people’s jaws hit the floor as I play them music on my Meridian DSP SEs.
This is with basic switches and decent Cat5e and 6 cables.
Another thing is feedback from people who do know how to listen to music, especially working musicians. They do have a good ear and I value their input a lot.

To me, it’s not worth the chase at this time as I have a kitchen to pay for :joy:

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One has to remember that digital transmissions are engineered to reject noise (RF or other) that may have been injected into the cable.

It is a certainty that no perfect square waves are received (or even generated) at either end. Then there may be additional noise coming from the environment that will mangle the perfect square wave some more.

This is why there are operational margins in terms of amplitude and time (and shape). As long as the received signal is more or less at the high (or low) value for about the right amount of time, it gives a 1 (or zero).


Overshoots, undershoots, ringing and delays… Still works!
Source: EE|Times - Jitter, Noise, and Signal Integrity at High-Speed: A Tutorial–Part I - By Dr. Mike Peng Li, 12.10.07 - https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1275083

Once the signal has been evaluated as a 1 or a 0, that’s the end of noise on that segment of the transmission.

Noise is rejected at every digital hop, external or internal, and is not carried over. This is valid not only for USB and Ethernet, but also for every transmissions inside digital equipment, inside and between chips.

If noise gets bad enough to make evaluating a 0 or a 1, because a piece of equipment is broken or very badly built, then error detection and correction (usually with a retransmit) kicks in. You do not have to worry about timing, because those transmissions are really quicker than anything that could worry digital music data decoding, and because buffers are in use in most cases anyway.

If noise becomes so bad that there are too many errors detected and too many retransmissions that end in error too, then all breaks down. You go from no errors, to some detected but corrected errors to total failures, without any degraded in-between state.

To illustrate, remember how analogue TV would go from fine to snowy degraded pictures, and how digital TV goes from fine to nothing, no snow (transitional visible artefacts are created temporarily as buffers empty with partial data). It’s the same for digital music, it will go from playing to not playing, without any state of degradation in-between.

Also, we are talking about digital transmissions of data, not music. Those transmissions happen at fixed frequencies. So invoking the fact that HF audio is transmitted better inside USB cable so and so at $1500 because it handles HF aufio better is pretty hard to read.

To make it short, noise in digital transmissions is irrelevant. Totally. Not by chance, but by design. It’s one of the great advantages of having moved from analogue to digital systems. The only place where noise is an issue starts in the analogue half of a DAC and beyond. Never, ever, before.

That means that esoteric digital cables can have nothing on properly built cables sold at affordable prices (which can be bought at any local supermarkets for low two digits values), playing from memory or underclocked or gui-less or optimised systems makes no sense, linear power supplies are a waste of energy by lack of efficiency. Cheap or expensive, there is no “audiophile” digital equipment that will work better, be it a network switch, a computer, a hard drive, SSD or a cable. If it works already, it cannot be made to work better.

What we have here is a lack of understanding of the engineered nature of digital transmissions, applying concepts relevant to the analogue world where they does not apply.

Also remember that transmitting, decoding and playing digital audio is a low-level effort for any computing equipment. If a cheap Chinese smart watch can do it, do not worry about the capacities of any equipment capable of running Roon, or being used around Roon.

Save your money, do not buy into the audiophile digital stuff, buy more music, or book a week of vacation on one of those beautiful islands if that’s more your thing!

EDIT: if you want to put more that $10 into a USB or ethernet cable because it looks better built or because it looks better next to your nice equipment, then, by all means, go right ahead. We are all entitled to non-practical features. I like nice looking expensive watches, when a $2 piece from the supermarket would give me the exact same time with the same accuracy.

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But, heh, if there was any ground to USB cables making music better, I would not use them for music, but for the connection to the USB hard drive storing the Excel file wher I balance my accounts. The bottom line would sound much better, I’m sure!

(I have a similar analogy about my porn collection and how things could be improved there too, but let’s not go into that…)

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Thanks for the cogent explanation. At last.

I look forward to the countering arguments.:laughing:

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So let’s just say your daughter (or son) graduated from MIT and was the head of engineering at a company that did audiophile ethernet cables. If somebody at a cocktail party asked you what she did, would you tell them, or would you take the easy way out and say “She ended up getting her degree in English and works for Uber now”?

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There is no engineering actually happening at companies doing audiophile digital cables, even less actual heads of engineering.
There is only marketing based on fear, uncertainty and doubt.

Any MIT electrical engineering graduate would know how it works, and why it is working like that: because an alumni of a similar university did the engineering, and the principles were part of the curriculum.

That makes your scenario highly unlikely.

But, if the salary is good enough, the ego low enough and scrupules absent, why not go for the job?

“She ended up lying and selling dishonest products now. She is earning a fortune because there are enough people with a budget and an expertise on completely different topics ready to buy her company’s products.”

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You lost all credibility with your first sentence.

Well, when any digital connection needs a cable

  1. a defined level of performance is needed to make things work
  2. this level of performance needed is called a specification, something that has been engineered with the transmission type, at creation time
  3. this specification is openly and freely published
  4. as for any digital transmission, once the specification is respected, going over it will not achieve any improvement in performance

So, any company who wants to put such a digital cable on the market just needs to pick up the specification, follow it, and manufacture. There is no engineering needed. Any additional engineering staff would be useless and only add cost, which would lower the margins and the bottom line.

Ergo “There is no engineering actually happening at companies doing audiophile digital cables, even less actual heads of engineering.”

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You gotta have an engineer (of sorts) to make em look pretty and design the boxes…

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And come up with the names! I mean, some of those materials they use and the various configurations require at least a deep technical vocabulary.

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And be handy with a vacuum flask, a pair of rubber gloves and a set of tongs for the mandatory cryogenic treatment.

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Since when did head alignment become obsolete? Whenever I listen to music, I always brace my head in exactly the same position. And if anyone else tries to pouf out my sweet spot butt groove, there be hell to pay.

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:joy::joy::joy:Sweet spot butt groove :joy::joy::joy:

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I didn’t know that Sheldon Cooper was into music! :smiley:

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So far the theory…

I’m happy to invite you and give you the chance to listen to different digital cables. Everything else being equal and you will hear a difference.

Or maybe not I don’t know. I just know that me and a lot of others hear differences with various margins. No theory against it can help. It depends on the resolution of the system to make those obvious. And to the capability of the listener in some aspects.

Cheers
NOA

[DELETED - Use the version control if you are interested in reading me getting swallowed by something I have, after all, zero interest in. No educational deed goes unpunished, apparently! :confused: ]

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