# Do all DACs sound the same? **URL:** \ **Category:** Audio Gear Talk\ **Created:** [May 10, 2022, 10:04pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196 "2022-05-10T22:04:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Marin\_Weigel](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/marin_weigel/32/73752_2.png) [@Marin\_Weigel](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Marin_Weigel)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2022, 11:12am UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/82 "2022-05-12T11:12:57Z")
> [@Reinhard\_Haberfellne](#): > > rethink your assumptions Not an assumption but a fact, sorry to burst your bubble. The “sound” of any audio device’s analog output is the sum of all of its measurable distortions of all kinds added together. If this distortion characteristic stays below audibility you’ve got a transparent device and any such device will sound the same to your ears when not influenced by adverse biases. If audibility threshold is passed, you start hearing differences. The more all other devices in the chain distort the signal, the harder it gets to detect miniscule differences when changing out a single device. When considering this, do not forget that your hearing sensitivity is tied to the logarithmic scale, so there’s no simple common-sense adding and subtracting when trying to understand the impact of measured values. Modern DACs’ distortion products are so far down on that scale, that their impact is absolutely dwarfed by the orders of magnitude higher distortions from loudspeakers and room acoustics, for example. Better invest your hard earned cash in room acoustics and speakers - get the best you can afford - and just then start thinking about splurging money on electronics. Definitely forget about all the cable and purifier and linear power supply craziness, put that money in your speakers where it really makes a difference! And yes, I’ve compared different DACs but kept the cheap model you can find in my profile… ---
**Author:** ![garye](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/garye/32/84909_2.png) [@garye](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/garye)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2022, 11:48am UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/83 "2022-05-12T11:48:58Z")
That’s a good dealer, most I have been to would recommend a£10000 box to improve my system while tapping his feet and head wildly to the beat. I generally walk away. ---
**Author:** ![Nick\_Mattin](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/nick_mattin/32/109027_2.png) [@Nick\_Mattin](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Nick_Mattin)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2022, 12:14pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/84 "2022-05-12T12:14:02Z")
I think he knew he’ld taken all my money anyway - it was in the early 80s and I’d just bought a Linn/Grace/Supex + Meridian 101/105 + Rogers LS7s - free advice was all I could afford ! ---
**Author:** ![garye](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/garye/32/84909_2.png) [@garye](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/garye)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2022, 2:01pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/85 "2022-05-12T14:01:17Z")
That was a great system he suggested too. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Barbour](https://community.roonlabs.com/letter_avatar/bruce_barbour/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@Bruce\_Barbour](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Bruce_Barbour)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2022, 4:31pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/87 "2022-05-13T16:31:36Z")
I respectfully disagree with the assumption that all audio designers begin with a goal of seeking an absolutely neutral sound. I know that some audio professionals have known for a long time that some people prefer certain types of distortion (ie. low order harmonics, tubes, the warm and smooth sound). They build products with this distortion and many people happily buy them. To quote Nelson Pass “This is entertainment, not dialysis”. ---
**Author:** ![Marian](https://community.roonlabs.com/letter_avatar/marian/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@Marian](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Marian)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2022, 4:51pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/88 "2022-05-13T16:51:16Z")
But those types of distortion can be achieved in the analog chain, downstream from the DAC, so having a neutral DAC gives more flexibility. And if they charge a fortune for an arguably imperfect product, it’s not very entertaining anymore. ---
**Author:** ![DanielAvasilichioaei](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/danielavasilichioaei/32/113101_2.png) [@DanielAvasilichioaei](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/DanielAvasilichioaei)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2022, 4:57pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/89 "2022-05-13T16:57:34Z")
> [@Marian](#): > > And if they charge a fortune for an arguably imperfect product, it’s not very entertaining anymore. Try saying this to lovers of analog audio systems… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Marian](https://community.roonlabs.com/letter_avatar/marian/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@Marian](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Marian)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2022, 5:13pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/90 "2022-05-13T17:13:31Z")
Whether analog or digital, where there’s a cult, there’s no reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![blbeczech82](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/blbeczech82/32/167113_2.png) [@blbeczech82](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/blbeczech82)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2022, 6:34pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/91 "2022-05-13T18:34:43Z")
First of all, I (not alone I hope) appreciate the polite way you share your opinions. > [@Bruce\_Barbour](#): > > They build products with this distortion and many people happily buy them. I agree with you but for analog devices only. Most brands have internal standards for electrical component sets/ design to achieve “brand signature” sound (or personality IYW). In digital devices is much easier/ cheaper to use DSP for “signature” sound and keep PCB analog path as clean/simple/cheap as possible. This gives to manufacturer (but to customer too) flexibility not to use “brand signature” sound personality. Indeed I don’t want any device to force it’s “signature” in my chain, I will EQ by myself. And I know it’s not avoidable (amp, speakers) but I want to have minimum variables in chain equalizating one each other. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Janssen](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/bill_janssen/32/198723_2.png) [@Bill\_Janssen](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Bill_Janssen)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2022, 6:51pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/92 "2022-05-13T18:51:30Z")
> [@Bruce\_Barbour](#): > > I respectfully disagree with the assumption that all audio designers begin with a goal of seeking an absolutely neutral sound. I agree with you! With my dyspeptic view of human nature, I’m sure that there are at least some who begin with the goal of fleecing suckers. ---
**Author:** ![blbeczech82](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/blbeczech82/32/167113_2.png) [@blbeczech82](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/blbeczech82)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2022, 6:54pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/93 "2022-05-13T18:54:04Z")
> [@Bill\_Janssen](#): > > fleecing suckers My czenglish is too short on this (and google too) 😃 What is it? ---
**Author:** ![mjw](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/mjw/32/382057_2.png) [@mjw](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/mjw)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2022, 6:55pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/94 "2022-05-13T18:55:57Z")
Rip off; ask an unreasonable price of a person who is gullible and easy to take advantage of. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Janssen](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/bill_janssen/32/198723_2.png) [@Bill\_Janssen](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Bill_Janssen)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2022, 7:09pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/95 "2022-05-13T19:09:07Z")
Sorry; kind of a Fifties way of putting it; it means taking advantage of the gullible to their financial detriment. Suppose, for instance, that I advertised a DAC made from special semiconductors formed from pre-1955 materials, so that the flurries of radiation produced by spacecraft perturbing the Van Allen radiation belts would not cause gauzy “veils” of subliminal static in the music produced by the DAC. Such a DAC would be hard to produce, because appropriate material would be scarce, and custom semiconductors sound like they would be expensive, so the potential customer would understand why it would have to be sold for $20,000. Really, I’d sell it for less, but I’d be taking a loss on each unit! ---
**Author:** ![Marian](https://community.roonlabs.com/letter_avatar/marian/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@Marian](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Marian)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2022, 7:12pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/96 "2022-05-13T19:12:19Z")
Or you could just say “quantum tunneling”. Everybody heard about it, almost nobody knows what it is. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mason](https://community.roonlabs.com/letter_avatar/john_mason/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@John\_Mason](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/John_Mason)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2022, 7:21pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/97 "2022-05-13T19:21:50Z")
> [@Bill\_Janssen](#): > > so that the flurries of radiation produced by spacecraft perturbing the Van Allen radiation belts would not cause gauzy “veils” of subliminal static in the music produced by the DAC. I’m sure that’s much clearer to @blbeczech82 now! ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Janssen](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/bill_janssen/32/198723_2.png) [@Bill\_Janssen](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Bill_Janssen)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2022, 7:28pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/98 "2022-05-13T19:28:05Z")
Quantum tunneling in my custom FPGA! ---
**Author:** ![AA\_Parky](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/aa_parky/32/78417_2.png) [@AA\_Parky](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/AA_Parky)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2022, 7:44pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/99 "2022-05-13T19:44:35Z")
The answer to quantum tunnelling lays deep in the bowls of FPGA, oh and SAP, likely also in EMACS. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Janssen](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/bill_janssen/32/198723_2.png) [@Bill\_Janssen](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Bill_Janssen)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2022, 7:46pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/100 "2022-05-13T19:46:57Z")
And please don’t omit Six Sigma firmware for the FPGA! ---
**Author:** ![blbeczech82](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/blbeczech82/32/167113_2.png) [@blbeczech82](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/blbeczech82)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2022, 7:53pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/101 "2022-05-13T19:53:03Z")
But only after proper FMEA with Minitab validation! ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Janssen](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/bill_janssen/32/198723_2.png) [@Bill\_Janssen](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Bill_Janssen)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2022, 7:54pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196/102 "2022-05-13T19:54:49Z")
And the appropriate Modelica bond-graph analysis! [Previous page](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196.md?page=4) [Next page](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same/201196.md?page=6)