Is this how you listen to music at home? Got to be a pain in the ass to put the blindfold on every time. I suppose you also blind test groceries before buying? We wouldn’t want our other senses to affect what we taste right? Remember to blind test the clothes you wear also since we can’t leave any room for subjectiveness in life. There’s plenty of qualities measurable on clothes. How they look is irrelevant obviously. I won’t even start with cars… but I do encourage you to blind test them also. You might be fooled by your brain otherwise.
Anyway, I like to keep all my senses open since we don’t only listen to music but we also feel it, sense it and experience it. There’s often emotions involved. This is my way of doing this and while I’m a strong believer in science, it’s simply irrelevant in this hobby. If thicker power cable makes my listening experience better then I might just buy it. Very simple and there’s no reason to make it anything else than that.
You have to realise that some are probably tone-deaf and have to make the science argument to justify their inability to detect tonal variances in audio system’s. Some dont even attemptd to find out what the fuss is about, due to the fear of their own bias. I have never heard science used in vain so many times. It also did not escape me that some of the greatest advocates for putting measurements ahead of listening actually have valve gear in their systems. Here’s a newsflash, tube equipment measures poory and have audible distortion levels. Some of us are simply saying, test it for yourself by listening, but that appears to be to big of an ask. @patouskii you fighting a battle you cannot win, they dont get it because they wont listen
The 'highly resolving, my system is better than your system, and I have golden ears" arguments are tiresome, and just a bit petty. Try not to make this personal.
No idea what you mean by this. What the objectivists are suggesting is that biases should be acknowledged, not swept under the carpet.
Nobody is putting measurements ahead of listening. What is being suggested is that listening is fallible, measurements are not. As for valve gear: yes, it measures poorly, for the most part, and does add distortion. Nothing wrong with that, because it sounds good.
As for science being used in vain: yep, pretty much …
Objectivist: Here’s the science.
Subjectivist: don’t care, I can hear a difference!
Objectivist: there’s science for that too, about how the brain and auditory system work.
Subjectivist: don’t care about about that science either, I can hear a difference!
Testing power cables by listening is, as has been pointed out, a complete waste of time because any differences are imagined. So yes, it’s a big and pointless ask.
‘They’ don’t get it because there’s nothing to get.
That’s not what’s happening at all, if you post on a public forum you invite responses, else why post? As long as those responses don’t break the forum rules then there’s no ground for complaint. Not at all the same thing as forcing your way into someone else’s photograph, which you can’t know is destined for Instagram. I’m sure there are a few sites where an objective perspective isn’t welcome?
Maybe my analogy wasn’t perfect and I am far more in agreement with the objectivist camp. It’s just that pedanticism irks me, I think we should let people dress up for their tea parties no matter how ridiculous they may look. I won’t judge,
It’s a bit playing dumb missing the opportunity to stay on topic, don’t you think? Most will have gotten this as it was meant, in fact choosing new components while making the best and as unbiased decision as possible. The hobby is audio. So hearing is key and should not be compromised. If you don’t accept confirmation bias as a fact further discussion is kind of pointless.
Ultimately, one camp gets to cherry pick unsubstantiated claims, can brush off scientific evidence, under an impression that this validated their position.
Measurements, in this case, are valid, not as a mark of good or bad SQ, but as evidence that the perceived changes don’t actually exist for the reasons stated.
Do people who brush off acceptable methodology, repeatable and peer reviewed experiments within HiFi also apply the same bravado to other areas of life?
3 Likes
AceRimmer
(Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!)
1346
Good Lord!
Is an hour between posts not long enough for everyone to stay calm and keep it civilized.
It can get longer…much longer!
Thank you for your patience and understanding
Which is fine when they’re photographed waving a placard claiming “climate change doesn’t exist” or “COVID-19 is a government conspiracy” or any similar unsubstantiated b0ll0cks that decries the scientific evidence laid before them…
They are not promoting public harm, or espousing conspiracy theories, they are spending their own money on stuff that probably has no real effect but makes them happy. They are not hurting anybody.
You could argue that public harm is done when someone else believes unsubstantiated claims made in a forum and spends their not-so-disposable income solely for the benefit of con artists.
It would be nice if there was a “safe space” for people who have experience (or are curious) about the impact of (things like) cables on hifi and to be able to discuss the topic without hordes of people jumping in to say what nonsense it all is. This is after all, a hobby and hobbyists like to discuss things that they are interested in with likeminded folks without being set upon.
Do power cables make a difference to sound quality?
You think not? Fine move on and go and do something else. But of course people like to engage in debate either just for keyboard entertainment, intellectual stimulation, honing their debating skills or because they passionately feel that the hifi world needs to be “purged of all of this nonsense”.
I basically agree with most of the things that Richard Dawkins says. But what I don’t like about him is how he is not content with debate but also actively likes to ridicule people’s faith.
It would have been better for the OP to have asked “Does anyone have experience of trying different power cables?” on the basis that if you don’t have experience, you have nothing to contribute to the specific point of the discussion and should go and do something else.
When people start taking to the person and not the argument (like we just saw), people are losing sight of the fact that we’re generally a group of people with (at least) some disposable income to indulge ourselves in our hobby. In this thread, we are noodling around in really trivial first-world problems for the purpose of enjoyment and entertainment. If people are getting angered, they need to go and read up on what else is going on in the world.
4 Likes
Bill_Janssen
(Wigwam wool socks now on asymmetrical isolation feet!)
1351
Indeed.
And promotion of nonsense really irks me, and apparently some of the other folks on the list. Nonsense has caused too much trouble in the world already.
So you’d like me to stop doing the thing that irks you, but you keep to get doing the thing that irks me? Doesn’t seem right somehow.
Let me suggest a modus vivendi: if folks will stop posting nonsense, I’ll stop objecting to it. That way we both win!
You’re spin doctoring here. There’s a difference between preferring a particular sound which is discernably different via measurements and claiming to hear a difference in sound which isn’t measurable.
Newsflash - valve gear tends to predominate in 2nd order harmonic distortion which to the human ear can sound quite pleasing. Depends on the design and implementation of the circuit how much it influences the sound.
I’ve retired my hulking great hybrid (tube input/SS output) integrated and replaced it with an AHB2 - no regrets. Have a SS can amp and a tube can amp at my disposal. Both sound great, though subtly different. Tube amp is a triode-pentode design, so not your standard affair. When (if) I have some time on my hands, I’ll measure them and compare them objectively.
But hey, we’re talking about personal tastes in relation to measureable differences with tubes. This is a thread about power cables - imaginary perceived difference vs no measurable difference. Apples vs oranges…
The only thing I am doing to irk you is pointing out that some of you are being evangelical about something that is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. I already stated that I am more or less an objectivist. Just seems your passion and expertise could be put to better use.
There is no doubt that music can fundamentally influence one’s personal emotions - after all, is that not why we listen to music in the first place? Nowhere in reality can power cords influence personal emotions. Certainly not mine.
Only public harm these threads are doing is possibly making people stop experimenting themselves. This hobby still is extremely subjective and we all like different things. We should all aim to personal pleasure and experience with music listening, not the best possible specifications and measurements. In the end it’s irrelevant what causes the difference we experience since it’s absolutely and 100% real to each of us experiencing it.
If you want to take the closed minded approach and believe that we know everything about this topic in 2022 then so be it. You’re free to think that your budget hifi is the best there is but don’t try to feed this nonsense to other people. Chi-fi with perfect measurements is not the end of all. Only way to find the best gear for yourself is to borrow the stuff and audition it in your own system with eyes (and all the other senses) wide open.
I also want to remind you that there’s no need to spend fortunes on power cables. When we go to multi thousand dollar cables, I’m at the snake-oil camp since the prices for some brands are just ridiculous. But nothing stops you from experimenting with cheaper cables or even take the DIY approach which can give awesome results.
If you accept that power cords make a difference, then it’s strange/ illogical to draw a line based on cost. If you believe that a 200 € power cord adds sonic value, on what basis other than budgetary constraints could you possibly claim that a 2000 € doesn’t. Why would a 2000 € cord be snake oil, but not a 200 € one? You could only differentiate between the two based on scientific evidence. Which means, by logical implication, that you do recognise the authority of scientific principles. (If it’s just a question of €€€, then the argument is but a reflection of social envy: I can’t afford this price, so the product can’t be any good or won’t make a difference …).
You see the problem with your position: given that there’s no scientific evidence that power cords beyond standard ones make a difference, how can you claim that a 200 € cord does?
I’m afraid that once you’ve bathed in snake oil, you’ll have to keep floating in it. There’s only one way out – get rid of the oil altogether.
I see no problem with my position. Only problem I see are measurists trying to force their close minded approach to this hobby which strips all excitement, fun and emotion out of it.
Anyway, I see no reason for 2000€ power cables purely because material and build costs for a power cable can’t possibly be that high unless you use pure gold/platinum whatever for the conductors. Copper and silver work just as well so no need to do anything like this. You can always point the costs to research though. There are no limits and obviously expensive power cables can make a difference also.
My mainly subjective approach to this hobby gives me the privilige to choose whatever limits and boundaries I find best suitable to my way of doing this. I’m not constrained by science and theories but only my budget and imagination. So much fun!
You keep on measuring and blind testing, I’m sure many of you get kicks out of it. I must admit I got some kicks also when I measured my setup with UMIK-1 + REW recently. Highly recommended to all of you.
