Sonore UPnP Bridge drops out when streaming 192/24

Support
1

I have a dropout issues on 24/192 with the latest Roon build, over a NETGEAR ProSafe Plus GS108Ev2 switch, to my endpoint, a Sonore UPnP Bridge (running on a Sonicorbiter SE) to Naim NDS Network streamer.

The Sonicorbiter and Naim NDS are connected to a Cisco SG110D-05 switch.

It is the Netgear ReadyNAS and NUC running ROCK with Roon Core that is on the Netgear GS108Ev2.

I also have a Netgear ProSafe Plus GS105, but there is no streaming components connected to this switch.

The Cisco is fed from the Netgear through Devolo 1200+ PoE devices.

I am not seeing any reported errors on any devices on the network where I can get statistics, i.e. Linux devices and ifconfig & netstat -s commands.

Oh yes, I have a mixed network of devices with IPv4 and IPv6 addresses.

Thanks,
Simon.

2

Hi @simon_pepper,

I’ve separated your post into a new thread for the moment as initial diagnosis of network issues can be hardware dependent. If we find a common factor then we can merge the threads again.

The first steps I’d suggest in isolating the issue would be to try the simplest possible network connection (everything on one switch, Ethernet only), if that is dropout free then add back PoE connections and other switches until the dropouts occur.

If the dropouts occur with that simple configuration, then we will know to look further at those components.

You might also check whether jumbo frames are on or off consistently in the router and each switch. When diagnosing treat them as a further component, turn them off initially and see if dropouts occur, add them back in and check again.

1 Like
6

Ok,
Unfortunately to put the NAS, Sonicorbiter and Naim NDS on the same switch, over wired Ethernet is not possible, as they are in different rooms & the Naim network player, plus 555DR Power Supply, with the twin bundies connecting them, is not portable and without the amp & speakers I have no way of determining whether the dropout is still present.

Remember that a simple RaspberryPi (Armv6) running squeezelite over the same PoE network is capable of playback of the 24/192 tracks without dropout, plus my HP Laptop, as an Roon Endpoint, over RAAT, connected by 802.11n WiFi is also capable of playback of the 24/192 tracks without dropout.

Now the only thing I could try is to move the NUC running ROCK & Roon Core away from the Netgear Gigabit switch shared with the NAS devices, to the Living Room with the Sonicorbiter and Naim NDS, so the Core to Library connection is over the PoE connection, but the Core to UPnP Bridge is wired Ethernet through the unmanaged Cisco switch.

Simon

7

Tried this.
NUC now connected to the same switch as the Sonicorbiter SE and Naim NDS over wired ethernet. The NAS library is remote, connected over the PoE device.

Playback of 24/192 is still not possible, and drops out after either no or a few seconds of playback.
Playback to the other end-points, the RPi running squeezelite (armv6) and the Laptop over WiFi still playbacks the same track at the 24/192 resolution.
The would mean that the playback path to the UPnP Bridge on the Sonicbridger is not operating correctly.

I have gone through the logs from the Roon Server and I am getting a Network Error in the middle of the playback

Do you need the full Log file?

When I drop the ‘Max Sample Rate’ on the UPnP Bridge to 96KHz, there is no problem with the playback - so the higher resolution is causing a Network Error on a wire ethernet connection, through a unmanaged switch.

Does this help?

Thanks,
Simon.

10

Hi @simon_pepper ---- Thank you for the follow up and sharing the results of your testing, the feedback is appreciated. A couple of things.

First, the log snippet you posted above, citing the Network Error warning. This is a red herring that can be ignored. We are aware of it and it is not something to be a cause for concern.

Secondly, in my most humble opinion, I would urge you to consider (temporarily of course) removing PoE from your testing conditions. The team has seen a variety of issues stem from these types of devices and whenever I see them mentioned in a user’s setup, it is an immediate red flag for me. I just want to be certain that nothing could potentially be compromising your testing :wink:

Furthermore and this is just some “food for thought”. While we do recommend the use of unmanaged switches, it is important to remember that these devices are not invincible. I have heard a few stories of lower end model switches “flaking” out after a period of time, obviously this is more common amongst lower end devices but the point being is that they are not invincible.

-Eric

11

But all the switches are capable of streaming 24/192 through other sources and other end-points.
So the UPnP Server solution has no problem with a 24/192 stream, and that’s on a RaspberryPi 2 with a 100Base-T ethernet connection over the PoE network.
The other squeezelite end-point running on a older RaspberryPi can play the 24/192 files over the PoE network.
My Laptop over a WiFi connection, using RAAT can play the 24/192 files.
The only route that doesn’t is the UPnP Bridge and it did before the latest Roon release.
So something changed with this release that has caused a networking error with the Sonicorbiter running the Sonore UPnP Bridge product.
Thanks, Simon.

12

Well, the changes in our recent release appear to be causing this issue in your network – from what we’re hearing from most people, the dropouts appear to be happening less frequently. And as far as I can tell, that’s true both for users in general, and people using the UPnP Bridge.

We absolutely want to get this resolved for you @simon_pepper and I appreciate the constraints you’re working under. It still seems to me that the next step here is to move the Core and NAS to a router that’s next to the NAIM device, to confirm whether things behave better with an extremely simple network setup.

As you add complexity back in, it should be straightforward to see when the dropouts return, and that should give us a data point that our team can investigate as a potential issue.

As it stands now, everything points to this being environmental, and there’s really no way forward other than troubleshooting methodically until we understand where the bottleneck is.

13

Hi Mike,

I was doing some maintenance in my ‘network rack’ and briefly moved my main NAS into the living room, attached it onto the same switch as the Naim NDS and Sonicorbiter. I also moved the NUC running ROCK - so the NAS, NUC, Sonicorbiter and Naim NDS Network player are all connected to a local switch, which is a simple unmanaged CISCO 5 port unit.

And, the playback drops out of 24/192 files within a few seconds of the track beginning.

It also erases all other items in the playback queue, it doesn’t just give up on one track as if it corrupt or inaccessible, playback ceases and any queue is empty.

This is the simplest network configuration I can get - all of the components are on the same 5-port switch - yet playback of 24/192 is not possible.

So what I do I need to do, now?

Thanks,
Simon.

14

Hey Simon – in the configuration above, what’s assigning addresses to all the devices?

Pinning down this issue will require some trial and error, like most environmental/networking issues. Obviously a lot of similar setups are working without issue, so we need to identify where things are going awry in your setup.

Some things I would try in the scaled down configuration:

  • Try a different Core
  • Try a different storage device, or try local storage
  • Try a different audio output
  • Try swapping cables

If you can get any of the above to play 24/192 in a simple Core-Router-Audio Device setup, you should be able to add complexity back in and identify what it is about your network that’s reacting poorly here.

Appreciate your patience here @simon_pepper – feel free to let us know what testing you’re planning and we’ll be happy to advise until this is resolved. Thanks!

15

Hi Mike,
Many thanks for the response.

With regard to your suggestions:

  • Try a different Core

How does this work, given that my Roon Licence only supports one Core. I moved this from a Laptop to ROCK running on NUC. I only have one NUC. My NAS units are ReadyNAS, the most powerful is a dual core Atom processor, which is not powerful enough to run Roon Core.
Basically this is not possible.

  • Try a different storage device, or try local storage

I will try and use a USB enclosure with an old HDD, and put 24/192 files on this, mounting it into the NUC.

  • Try a different audio output

As stated, 24/192 content plays without issue on my Laptop over WiFi using RAAT and on a RaspberryPi Model B using squeeze-lite over the PoE network.
Now this is a really low power device, the PoE is using the older devices, supporting a transfer rate of 150Mbps, so if there was going to drop-outs as result of environmental considerations it would be here.

The only place the drop out occurs is via the Sonore UPnP Bridge on a Sonicorbiter SE device, playing into the Naim NDS Network Player.

Which when operating a single direct connected network still occurs, eliminating the environmental elements and points to product functionality, between ROCK, Roon Core, Sonore UPnP Bridge and Naim NDS Network Player.

Plus on material that does play, i.e. less that 24/192 and when there is down conversion to 96KHz the sound via the UPnP Bridge sounds flat and lifeless.

  • Try swapping cables

Done this, in terms of CAT5, CAT5e and CAT7 cables - no change there.

So trying local storage on ROCK is the only workable attempt to continue to try and resolve this playback issue - however there is no meaningful support forthcoming from Sonore on their UPnP Bridge product or Sonicorbiter SE product.

To be honest I have given up looking to use Roon as my main method of selecting files for playback. I will use Roon for Library Management, as before, but continue to use UPnP Server and the Naim App as the method to select and control playback.
In addition to the Playback of 24/192 content issues, the fact that the sound is flat and lifeless is a real problem.
The lack of suppport from Sonore for their UPnP Bridge product has not been good experience - “well it works here” (in a completely different system) and “other users are happy with the sound” (none of which have a Naim NDS player) is frankly not been good enough.

So the expense of the NUC unit, RAM and SSD to run ROCK will hopefully be returned if/when Naim support Roon natively, however, given the roadmap requirements for Naim with their new product lines, I think this is highly unlikely.

The cost of the recent upgrade to Lifetime Roon membership, in anticipation of Roon being the main method of driving Music playback, is wasted on just using Roon for Library Management.

The expense of the Sonicorbiter SE was just a wasted venture, from a company that does not provide helpful Customer Support to understand the problem and offer meaningful help.

Thanks,
Simon.

16

For the purposes of the test, I would just run a fresh install on the laptop and confirm you’re seeing the same issue – that would at least eliminate the NUC as the source of the problems, although based on the rest of your report (specifically that the issue only occurs with the Sonore bridge), my guess is that this is not a Core issue.

When you set up the Core on the laptop, you can move your license over, and then you can log back into the NUC once the test is complete.

I can’t really speak to the Bridge or the Naim device – I’ll leave that to @Jesus_Rodriguez – but I do still think it’s worth trying to isolate this issue. Am I correct that this all works as expected when playing UPnP to the Naim directly? Have you tried going from the Core into the Naim directly?

I’m going to set this thread to unlisted @simon_pepper – we’ll stick with it until we get this resolved here, but I don’t think we need input from others here. We really do appreciate you putting everything through the paces, and I’m confident we’ll be able to identify the bottleneck this way and eliminate the dropouts.

17
18

Hi Mike,

Yes the dropouts only occur when trying to play back 24/192 files through the Sonore UPnP Bridge to the Naim NDS player.
Serving the Naim NDS from the UPnP server (Asset R6 running on a RaspberryPi 2) plays absolutely perfectly at all supported resolutions, plus Gapless, plus native DSD64 support (not DoP). It just Naim are not putting emphasis into improving the UX/UI of the Naim App (iOS and Andriod), is only for Naim products etc. Unlike all the good things that Roon does - interface, metadata enrichment, multi-platform, etc.

You said “Have you tried going from the Core into the Naim directly?”, how this that configured.
The NUC doesn’t have a digital SPDIF output, it only has these potential outputs

and these can’t connect to the Naim, which as Network Player has Ethernet, SPDIF coax and optical connections (the Optical is limited to max 24/96 anyway).

I have a free licence for Roon, will setup a second Core on the Laptop, transfer a 24/192 and try it over the UPnP Bridge (I can use WiFi or local or the PoE network) - good plan.

Simon.

19

Ok, tried that.

Disconnected from ROCK (and powered it down)
Copied one album of 24/192 that plays perfectly through the direct UPnP server.
Scanned the Album, so the Core on the Laptop has one album
Setup the UPnP Bridge to connect to the Core on the Laptop
Connected the Laptop to the switch with the Sonicorbiter and Naim NDS player (so other network)

Now you can’t get much simpler a network - 3 devices: Core with local storage (SSD drive), SonicorbiterSE running the UPnP Bridge and the NDS Naim Player.

and - playback of 24/192 not possible - didn’t even play the first seconds of music and stop - just didn’t play at all.

Reduce the playback resolution to 96kHz and playback not a problem, as seen with ROCK and the PoE network.
In fact, moved the laptop off the local network, back on WiFi (802.11n at 300Mbps) where the route back to the Sonicorbiter is via the PoE connection, and playback at 24/96 works fine.

So the fault must be with the Core -> SonicorbiterSE UPnP Bridge -> Naim NDS player connection for 24/192 files.

Unless I am going stupid - but as a user with an Engineering Degree and a Masters, and works in Telecom Software IT, where we process transactions at 5-6 per second.

So what next?
Thanks,
Simon.

20

Sorry, I missed one of your questions

“in the configuration above, what’s assigning addresses to all the devices?”

All Ethernet devices are operating off an assigned static IP addresses, only the devices connected by WiFi are assigned an address by a DHCP server, running in a VPN Router, as the ‘front’ of the internet provision, just behind the cable modem, operating in ‘bypass mode’.

There are no IP conflicts or clashes within the network. I have a network scan application that lists all IP addresses operating on the network.

Thanks,
Simon.

21

Any update here, re. My network once stripped right down, still drops out 24/192 files.
Remember this was working with the Sonore UPnP Bridge with a previous Roon build. It stopped when you moved to a TCP based protocol.
Thanks, Simon

22

Hey Simon – sorry to hear you’re still having problems here.

To be clear, as I understand it the UPnP Bridge uses the Squeezebox protocol, not RAAT, so that’s not going to be relevant here.

I need to check, but I don’t think we have one of these units in house for testing. Have you spoken with Jesus or Sonore on this at all? We can absolutely continue advising you on how to troubleshoot the network, but it would be interesting to know if they’ve heard similar reports, or if others are streaming 24/192 to this device successfully.

Let me know and we’ll keep at it until we get this resolved @simon_pepper.

23

Ok

What the Sonicorbiter SE or a Naim NDS unit? Bit of a cost difference. $300 for the former, and $12,995 for the later, however the NDS needs a PSU and the reference one, the 555DR is $11,495 and then $1,850 for the cables to connect the two.

Yes, I have reached out to Jesus, in the original posting on this forum, but his approach that it works with the Sonic Transporter units that they supply, and wasn’t willing to entertain that the UPnP Bridge product on the Sonicorbiter device wasn’t working.

He agreed with you that I need to simplify the network - however, I have done that, reduced the Roon Core element to one with local storage (not the NAS volume) and a single network switch into the Network Player - so only 3 networked components - Core, Sonicorbiter running the UPnP Bridge and the NDS, but still it doesn’t play 24/196 files.

Not sure if anyone else has this type of system configuration, i.e. not using Naim’s own UPnP Server product and trying to use a Roon Core and the UPnP Bridge product into a NDS.

It would all be a lot easier if Naim Audio would support RAAT!

However, I have no admin access to the Sonicorbiter unit for any level of diagnostic information, and there doesn’t seem to be any debug or logging to submit back to Sonore.

So I have somewhat given up on migrating to Roon Core as my main playback controller.
Back to using the UPnP Server as the primary source, given it can play all formats and sounds much better.
Thanks,
Simon.

24

Mike,
I am having issues getting on-going support from the provider of the Sonore UPnP Bridge running on the SonicorbiterSE product.

The provider is basically stating that are no longer prepared to provide support for the products I have purchased.

These products are co-branded as ‘RoonReady’, would it be possible to review your relationship with this company.

Many thanks,
Simon.

25

Not voicing any opinion on your discussion with Jesus here, but please be aware the RoonReady certification applies to the RoonReady mode of Sonore’s devices only.

The UPNP Bridge application takes an input over the Squeeze protocol and outputs via UPNP. It is kind of a smart hack, but one with a few implications (UPNP not being a clear standard is one of them) – hence the beta designation. Please note that Squeezebox support in Roon is limited to the various Squeezebox hardware options – while most software implementations of the Squeeze protocol will work, it would be impossible to support them in a formal way.

As far as RoonReady goes, Sonore has been one of the first RoonReady partners and offers a stable and well-supported implementation that’s kept up to date on a regular basis. Again: not voicing an opinion here – just supplying a bit of information.