DSD 512 to PCM Sample rate conversion

DoP64 requires 176.4kHz
DoP128 requires 352.8kHz
DoP256 requires 705.6kHz
DoP512 requires 1411.2kHz

Therefore some Chord DAC supports DoP256 if they support both DSD256 and PCM768.

It is not possible to send DSD512 to Chord from any Linux product or Mac OS.

Another recommended product above does not currently do DSD512 on Linux either, pending firmware upgrade from the manufacturer. You still have to use Windows unless you get a Linux native DSD compatible DAC or a Roon Ready (different from Roon Tested) DSD512 player such as Lumin X1 or T2 from us.

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Thank you for a pointer. Unless I have misread the specs, it is pretty limited in terms of frequency capability:

44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192 kHz (USB Input)

The only DACs that clearly state DSD 512 other than what we have been talking about that I know about are from Auralic. Even then they would not work with the Nucleus. I would only get the DSD 512 using one of their streamers.

I think we have exhausted this topic :slight_smile: I have the following choices:

  1. Give up on high data rate DSD, at that point I could start my search over again.

  2. Get final verification that the Chord DAVE would support DSD 512 from the Nucleus +. If it does, spend the extra $$$ and do that.

  3. Go back to Auralic (I started with an Aries Mini) and buy a set of their newer gear. This would mean not using the Nucleus +.

  4. Stay with the Nucleus + and the Chord Hugo TT 2 and hope the Nucleus/Roon software is enhanced at some point in the future, working with Chord so that I can get DSD 512.

Did I miss anything?

That’s the thing, DSD512 over DoP requires PCM1544, not PCM768. Hence why no device or OS supports it. You need native DSD protocol support in the kernel.

As to inserting an endpoint affecting sound quality… The folks here that claim they can hear a difference tend to prefer the stand-alone endpoints over connecting directly to the Roon Core. (In truth, there is no difference, however. (Or, at best, the differences are due to something else besides the inclusion of the endpoint – like poorly designed hardware.) But that statement is sacrilege to an audiophile, I know. Personally, I went the route of a DAC with integrated network streamer using an Auralic Vega G2 for my main listening room.)

Yes, give up on Linux and just run a Windows computer. It is the most straightforward answer to your issue.

That being said, Yes, the T+A requires a Windows PC. However, the Holospring can be fed by a microRendu. @andybob has been using such a setup for years upsampling to DSD512. I mentioned him so he can jump in and provide his personal experiences.

I just use a Windows PC. I have found no sonic differences between using that or a Linux based computer or computer endpoint.

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Edit:

Actually, let me clarify. There are two ways of doing this with Windows. The first is to use a NUC, load windows, load RoonServer, load the drivers, attached the DAC. The second is to get the Nucleus, attached the Nucleus to ethernet, attach a small Windows computer by ethernet which is running only RoonBridge and the DAC drivers, attach a USB from the windows box to the DAC. Now, the windows box in this case can be a very low powered all in one box, sold on Amazon for under 200 including Windows, because all it is doing is running the DAC drivers and taking the feed from Roon and passing it on. It is in essence replacing the SonicOrbiter mentioned in one of the posts above.

Is there much material available at 512? Just interested as to the relative investment Vs music available.

There is basically NO material available at DSD512. It’s an upsampling target. And it’s questionable if that even sounds better. Internally, most modern DACs also perform upsampling, so you are bypassing the DAC’s internal and feeding it from an external upsampler. It thus boils down to which upsampling algorithm you think sounds better (if you can even hear a difference).

But then I’m one of those engineering curmudgeons rather than an “audiophile”…

Not really, but more is coming along all the time. If you looked at NativeDSD several years ago, it was mostly DSD64. Now at least 50% of the stuff I have looked at is DSD 256. 512 has only been available in the last 6 months or so. It may be a small percentage for some time, or it may never catch on.

While not in the ballpark as the DACs mentioned so far, at least as far as price goes, I use an iFi Pro which can accept and/or upsample to 768k and DSD1024.

I feed it an unadulterated 44.1 signal thru an RPi transport and a Mutec re-clocker.

As Rugby sets out above I use a Windows 10 Core server, which also runs HQ Player. This is located in another room as it is not silent. Then Ethernet to a microRendu, USB to a Matrix Audio X-SPDIF2, I2s to Holo Spring 1 DAC.

The Holo Spring 2 is the current model and extends to DSD 1024 and has 48k family DSD capability.

I have no DSD 512 material, but listen to everything upsampled to DSD 512 and then NOS in the Spring.

One of the reasons I like the Spring is that it has separate R2R circuitry for PCM and DSD. So after HQ Player upsamples to DSD 512, everything stays in native DSD 512 until converted to analog.

I have two devices in the signal chain before the DAC (microRendu and X-SPDIF2). At one time this would have been anathema to my “less is more” analog sensibilities. And yes, I would prefer only 1 or preferably an Ethernet DAC. But the I2S input on the Spring 1 is better than the USB and I can’t hear any ill effects from the additional device. The Spring 2 has an improved USB input.

Although I like the detail and width of DSD 512 I think DSD in general can blunt the leading edge of the attack envelope. I also use valve amplification, although my gear is at the brighter end of the valve palette. I use a simple DSD modulator in HQ Player to preserve transients and no house curve (flat frequency response) to shift the aural tone back to “neutral”.

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I have tried the following DAC’s plugged directly into a Nucleus Plus:

Chord Qutest - Maximum DSD 256 via DSP

Project S2 Digital Ultra - Maximum DSD 512 via DSP

Matrix Audio X Sabre Pro MQA - Maximum DSD 512 via DSP. I have an X-SPDIF 2 interface being delivered next week so I can try the I2S input on the X-Sabre.

After exhaustive testing, I too have left the DSP on DSD 512 upsampling because most of my ripped CD’s from the 80’s, 90’s and early 00’s sound better with that ‘edge’ rounded off.

Victor

I was going to question this but decided to do a sample of the now 23 albums they [NativeDSD] have available in DSD 512 format. I looked at about 10 - you really have to dig to find out some of the information. In any case, not one of the albums I looked at (and at least one of them I own) was recorded in DSD 512 format. The best I found was:

Digital converter
DSD Super Audio / Horus DSD256
Pyramix Editing / Merging Technologies

I think I can hear a difference but admit is is small between the DSD 256 and DSD 512 versions. I am currently upgrading my DAC/Streamer so I don’t have the best equipment to listen to it yet. The new equipment ‘might’ reveal more.

Since you are referencing recording made via Merging Technologies. Have you investigated their Merging NADAC+Player? It is their DAC and a Roon Core or endpoint at the same time.

I don’t find this vague.

DSD support: DoP DSD 64 to DSD 512 – native via Windows

From this page on the chord website.

https://chordelectronics.co.uk/product/hugott2/

It’s brief and concise but clear enough. Sounds to me like you need to find a new dealer.

However as I understand it DSD over DoP is just DSD in a PCM wrapper not a conversion and should be the same as native DSD.

Where is the upper limit for DoP. It is not clear in the line I quoted. That said, I have found that through conversations with the Chord people. DoP for all products is limited to to 256. Show me where 256 even appears on the line I quoted.

FWIW I agree that the line quoted by philr, of itself, would have misled me into thinking that DoP extended to DSD 512 and that Windows was only required for native DSD. It would have been better expressed as:

DSD support: DoP DSD 64 to DSD 256, native DSD 512 via Windows.

You are right the DSD 256 limit over DOP is not clear. I had not read the whole of this thread carefully enough before responding. Chord are at fault here. I still maintain that a dealer who did not know this or did not understand this enough to get the right answer from Chord and Roon is not worth dealing with.

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DoP512 requires 1411.2kHz PCM, regardless of brand. But the vice vesa is not necessarily true, i.e. support for 1411.2kHz PCM does not imply DoP512 will work.

A far more common case is when a DAC advertizes DSD256 with PCM 384kHz. Since DoP256 requires PCM 705.6kHz, it implies that the DAC cannot cannot support DoP256, and DSD256 has to rely on native DSD, which necessitates Windows with correct drivers or support by Linux native DSD.

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Also see https://www.dcsltd.co.uk/support/what-is-dop-dsd-over-pcm/ as an FYI on DoP.

I would like to thank everyone for their comments while I went through this process. Yes, sales people should be better informed, but it took me several weeks of active investigation to really get to the bottom of this, so equipment manufacturers and people that provide the hi rez music also share some responsibility.

If DSD were a bigger market force, vendors would have already addressed this problem by developing software for non-Windoz devices to support Native DSD instead of the encapsulation of DSD in a PCM envelope. Only time will tell. There is a good reason for developing the software though since Native requires fewer computing resources.

Here is a reference to the standard.