I have a Sony X800M2 SACD player. It does output DSD to my Yamaha RXA 3080 receiver. When I compare the SQ of the Sony to playing my Roon files output to my Denon 2000dnp DAC via USB delviering DSD over PCM from my Mac Mini, the SQ of the DAC is far superior IMO.
I have not compared the same album SACD versus DSD download in an A:B comparision, but I when I play my Sony (which outputs 44/16 via Coax cable for SACD’s) played through my DAC, the DAC sounds better than the SACD.
Just opinions. Is this the result of a lower price SACD player (that does send a DSD signal to my receiver) or a function of a good DAC.
I have never listened to a high end SACD player.
I have many DSD downloaded files. On my system, non-DSD files sound better when upsampled to DSD. May be just a function of my equipment.
Just curious about other people’s experience with DSD downloads versus SACD and their opinions on DSD upsampling. I now listen to Roon only with DSD upsamling.
This system behaviour is consistent with established digital-audio design principles and does not require invoking format superiority to explain the observed results.
In the described configuration, a Sony X800M2 outputs SACD content as 16-bit / 44.1 kHz PCM over S/PDIF due to SACD copy-protection constraints. This signal, when converted by the Denon DNP-2000NE, is perceived as higher quality than native DSD playback through a Yamaha RX-A3080.
The determining factor is the quality of the digital-to-analog conversion and associated analog output stage. The Denon DNP-2000NE is a dedicated two-channel component optimised for low-noise clocking, power isolation, and analog signal integrity. In contrast, the RX-A3080 integrates multichannel DACs, DSP engines, video processing, and power amplification within a single chassis, necessarily imposing design trade-offs.
As SACD permits native DSD output only over HDMI, playback through the Yamaha requires the use of its internal DAC and processing path. This comparison therefore evaluates two fundamentally different architectures: a direct USB-fed stereo DAC versus an HDMI-fed multichannel receiver. The former presents a simpler signal path with reduced jitter sensitivity and fewer processing stages.
Additionally, PCM-to-DSD upsampling performed in software (e.g., via Roon) can improve subjective performance by relocating noise shaping and filtering to a high-precision processing environment and allowing the DAC to operate with gentler analog filtering. The benefits of this approach are implementation-dependent and system-specific.
In summary, the observed performance differences are primarily attributable to differences in DAC architecture, analog output design, clocking strategy, and signal-path complexity, rather than to the inherent properties of SACD, DSD, or PCM formats themselves.
TY very much for your response. I suspected what I was perceiving was the superiority of the Denon as opposed to the superiority of the DSD download as a format.
From this I surmise that the only way to improve SQ of an SACD player is in the analog output stage of the player using my system. There probably isn’t any reason to believe it would be superior to the Denon.
You have correctly identified the bottleneck. Due to SACD copy-protection (Scarlet Book), high-resolution DSD cannot be sent digitally to an external DAC over S/PDIF or USB. As a result, direct SACD playback from the disc is inherently tied to the quality of the player’s internal DAC and analog output stage.
In practical terms, the only meaningful way to improve playback directly from the physical disc is to use a player with a truly reference-grade analog section. To clearly outperform a Denon DNP-2000NE, this would typically mean moving into significantly higher-priced SACD players from brands such as Marantz (Reference series), Luxman, or Esoteric.
However, there is a third option that aligns perfectly with your specific gear.
Since you already use Roon and own a Sony X800M2, you should know that this player is capable of ripping SACDs to DSF files over the network. It requires a USB stick and a specific script (commonly found by searching “SACD Extract Sony X800M2”), but it is a well-documented process.
Once ripped, those DSD files can be imported into Roon and streamed directly to your Denon via USB. This bypasses the limitations of the physical disc connection entirely and allows your SACD content to benefit from your best DAC. In many systems, this approach delivers the highest overall sound quality achievable from SACD material.
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mjw
(Here I am with a brain the size of a planet and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper. Call that job satisfaction? I don't.)
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As an aside, if you’re using an AVR, it’s all converted to PCM anyway. So, you might as well have Roon convert the DSD to PCM for the reason described above.
This is exactly what I did with my SACD’s for best quality playback. I did have to buy a cheap secondhand blue-ray/SACD player to get me there but it was well worth the effort
I think you have given me a nice project for one of my cold rainy weekends this winter.
I have a nice collection of SACD’s, probably a hundred or so. With most of them in 24 bits on Qobuz, I have to admit I do not listen to them as much anymore. Partially because of laziness, and partially because they sound really good streaming through my DAC.
My DSD download files to my ear sound superior to the 24 bit Qobuz files streaming going though my DAC.
It sounds like a perfect project for a rainy weekend. Since you have around 100 discs, the effort will definitely be worth it.
To validate your observation: The superiority you hear in your DSD files vs. the Qobuz stream is often not just about the format, but the mastering. SACDs frequently use dedicated audiophile masters with greater dynamic range, whereas streaming versions (even Hi-Res) sometimes use louder, more compressed masters intended for mass-market playback. By ripping the SACD, you ensure you are keeping that superior master.
A few quick tips to save you from frustration when you start:
The Critical Setting: Before you start, go into your Sony’s menu under System Settings and ensure “Quick Start Mode” is turned ON. The ripping script actually runs while the player appears to be “off” (in standby), so this setting keeps the internal brain active to execute the hack.
USB Stick: Make sure the USB stick you use for the script is formatted to FAT32 (not ExFAT or NTFS). The Sony players generally won’t execute the script from other formats.
Output Format: When you configure the ripping software (look for “SACDExtractGUI” on the computer side to avoid using command lines), choose DSF as the output format rather than ISO. Roon handles metadata and artwork much better with individual DSF files than with large ISO images.
The Reward: The best part is that the “laziness” factor disappears completely. Once they are in your library, playing your best-sounding SACD is just as easy as clicking a Qobuz link.
Good luck! It is a game-changer for a library of that size.
Not necessarily true - if you’re using Pure Direct mode on a Yamaha specifically (the one I have experience of, RX-A6A) you’ll get their Pure Direct DSD mode with no conversion to PCM. However, this will bypass all DSP including room correction and bass management, so your subwoofer will fall silent with stereo or 5.0 SACDs. If your L/R mains are full range then this is a really nice way of playing stereo SACD (although personally I prefer the analogue outputs of my Marantz UD7007). For surround SACD you probably want bass management and speaker size settings to do their thing.
Step up the quality of the SACD player, use analogue connections and Pure Direct on the Yamaha and SACD will sound gorgeous (assuming its a great recording). The current and some older Marantz players even have a USB DAC input so you can play your DSD files through the same DAC. (I think Luxman and Esoteric SACD players do the same, at a somewhat higher cost.)
The very most, if not all, AVRs use internal DACs fed with PCM, not DSD. Regardless if some “Pure Direct” mode, even if the used DACs support direct DSD-to-analog conversion.
Usually, manufacturers do not disclose this in detail.
Everything I have read, from multiple sources, suggests that (at least for the Aventage receivers) DSD over HDMI from SACD (or possibly with DSD64 files from a Mac running Roon, again over HDMI) will natively convert DSD to analogue in Pure Direct DSD mode as all DSP is bypassed. Any other mode (including ‘straight’) will use the DSP which must convert to PCM for it to work.
DSD to PCM conversion for surround SACD may be desirable of course to ensure your music fits your speakers and subwoofers.
Again this is Yamaha-specific and from my direct experience, but the display shows a distinct and specific mode ‘Pure Direct DSD’ (not just ‘Pure Direct’) when SACD is being played over HDMI. I have no reason to believe or suspect that Yamaha would create a specific Pure Direct DSD and the convert to PCM in the background.
No PC like hardware can transmit native DSD over HDMI via roon. In some cases DSD over PCM (container) is possible.
The “Pure Direct Mode DSD” is also available with e.g. Denon or Marantz. It only says it does not apply DSP like esp. “room correction”. This usually does not exclude DSD2PCM conversion.
Again, it usually is not disclosed in how far there’s actually a direct DSD-to-analog conversion happening.
I can only go from my own experience, and haven’t tried sending DSD from my Mac Mini to the receiver as it’s attached to the router in the hallway doing duty as my Roon Core.
There is a problem here in that the manufacturers word things rather unhelpfully, and their helpdesk agents (or whatever we might call them) don’t seem to have definitive knowledge of these things for AV amps and receivers, and if you search through forums you’ll see responses like “all analogue sources are digitised at the input” which is incorrect for most receivers - and certainly is for Yamaha’s Pure Direct mode which is analogue straight through with all AD/DA and (therefore) DSP bypassed in Pure Direct mode. If there are lingering doubts about DSD conversion status, a nice SACD player (or DSD capable DAC for Roon) will resolve these concerns. It doesn’t help that music through these devices is a bit of an edge use case, and many users may simply use Spotify Connect for occasional music in their home cinema.
I find it difficult to believe that the guys who do know - the engineers and designers who develop the products - would implement a specific DSD mode if DSD is not being converted natively (even if the manual writers don’t quite get the memo).
In my experience, the Pure Direct DSD mode on the Yamaha RX-A6A sounds lovely, and is a very nice way to play SACDs - but I preferred my Marantz UD7007’s analogue outputs when I hooked it up. It’s so nice I’ve event started buying occasional fancy Japanese SACDs.
The folks in Japan listen to SACD/DSD recordings and have the equipment to reproduce it well despite copyright issues. I have a collection of SACDs and just ordered another. My great Marantz SA7’s drive quit. Didn’t want to spend $10 k on a replacement. My dCS Bartok works DSD only with its own drive, another expensive option. I bought a Marantz 30 n CD/SACD player and use it to play SACDs directly to my preamp. The Japanese know how to make decent sounding DSD DACs, it’s a lot easier than our digital. The analog output is okay as well. It also functions as a CD turntable to play them with standard digital output feeding the Bartok DAC via a 75 ohm cable.
