DSD512 tracks Roon Server unable to play over local Windows 10 Junction folder

Roon Server Machine

Processor Intel(R) Core™ i7-10875H CPU @ 2.30GHz, 2304 Mhz, 8 Core(s), 16 Logical Processor(s)
OS: WIN10 22H2 19045.3693
MEM: 64GB DDR4 2666MHZ
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2060 6GB GDDR6 VRAM

Networking Gear & Setup Details

Connected Audio Devices

Number of Tracks in Library

Description of Issue

The partition on my primary 2TB M.2 MVMe PCIe SSD with my main local Music directory was running out of space on my laptop so moved my folder for tracks >= DSD256 to another 2TB M.2 SSD & partition with plenty of space & created a junction symbolic link to the target folder in the original location so that I didn’t have to update all of my playlists as the drive/path would have changed.

I have 70+ local library playlists, so it is a massive task. I then created a new playlist to burn in my brand-new Black Chord Hugo2 I just got on a BFCM deal. I quickly noticed that via the Roon Server any DSD512 track in this new playlist, others & my library always errored & skipped.

Junction Link created running CMD “as admin”:
mklink /J “D:\Users<me>\Music\01 - HDTracks\03 - Hi-Res [DSD256 & Over]” “S:\Music\01 - HDTracks\03 - Hi-Res [DSD256 & Over]”

Is this a Roon Server software issue? Because using the direct path to the location the DSD512 tracks play fine with the ASIO driver direct but not via the symbolic link folder path. Before creating the symbolic link DSD512 played fine to my Lumin T2 over the network. So, it seemed to me initially to be Roon Server and/or Chord ASIO driver issue. This isn’t the case.

So, as a control I imported the playlist into MusicBee & Foorbar2000 & the tracks played fine via the symbolic link folder to the target directory with DSD512 files.

So, I started playing with the settings for the ASIO driver increasing to use max buffer size & power-of-2 buffer size as a test no joy & even increased the number of cores from 10 to 16 for the background audio analysis speed - I’m fairly new to advanced settings & setting up endpoints for playback. The WASIPI driver down-samples to DSD256 & plays via DoP which I am not interested in as sound is not to my liking.

After going down the rabbit hole of trying to find a needle in a haystack of members & other forums user’s issues with Chord Hugo2 + DSD512 + Roon etc. I ended up stopping after a very short time as long threads elsewhere got off topic fast & it started wasting my time. Here I found nothing that matched my specific issue. So as a Newbie and creating a new thread so forgive any fopaux please.

The Fix: enabling the new target folder in my library directly on the new location & changing the files to that of the new target location and guess what? The files play fine much to my pleasure.

Is this a Roon software issue with Windows 10? I know that massive ERP systems and databases on Linux use symbolic links and they are used now in windows server OS environments with massive IOPS through them via the same software. So why is this happening for DSD512 tracks on a windows symbolic link?

The initial track I discovered the issue on is only 1.93GB 6:07mins long. I say only as hi-res multi-channel files can be much larger depending on the number of channels like in Auro3D or 5.1.4 mastering.

Looking forward to your response on why DSD512 files won’t play in windows 10 via a symbolic link windows folder. I say DSD512 as so far that is the only issue I have noticed. All other DSD256 files play fine via the symbolic link.

Cheers
V/-

Are you sure it is suitable to create junctions “as admin”? I always do this in the same context as i plan to use them, and Ron per se does not work in elevated mode?

I use Junctions myself, but mostly to create shares (in windows) for other consumers.

Hi @Mikael_Ollars

thanks for the fast response. I didn’t think that creating the folder with elevated privileges means that any app or user that subsequently uses the folder path with a symbolic link uses those elevated privilege as the user or app is not in or using the same session context of that creating the directory nor do I believe that the context exist afterward nor is it impersonating admin, is it? That seems like a large security hole for ACL’s?

I removed the directory & created it without the admin privileges and now the DSD512 files play fine through the junction folder. I’ll do some more research now that I know where the issue is. I’m used to using running as admin in server enterprise/corporate landscapes, so it was by default without thinking of the impact of the outcome.

Do you know why Roon server won’t play DSD512 over a junction folder created running command “as admin” vs my windows user - admin role?

thanks for the perspective as this has resolved the issue.

Cheers
V/-

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I’m not sure why you see a security hole - other than habitually running elevated. Each time you create a file or folder, they get a default security descriptor, which depends on the owner. You can see it by running “icacls <path>” and compare the output in the two cases.

Also, when you say “as admin”, are you just running elevated, or actually using a local admin account?

Sorry, no, that doesn’t compute for me… :blush:
And i admit, it appears a bit… flaky… I don’t have any files with these “obscene” resolutions though…

The obvious suspect is the different permissions on the junction. It should have nothing to do with resolution (although I agree it’s obscene :slight_smile: ). Listing the descriptor with “icacls” should reveal the truth.

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You realize that while the incoming DSD file might be accepted by the Hugo2 in native format, the first thing that happens to that DSD512 file is that it is converted into PCM, and then sent to the DAC. The only Chord that does “native” DSD processing is the Dave.

Its a security hole from my perspective if the as administrator context would be used by any user wanting to use the junction esp. If I have assigned read access so users on the network can’t delete files. But, that is kind of a side topic. I’m more interested in knowing why Roon server running on my laptop can’t play native DSD512 files behind the junction created via the cmd window running “as administration” (higher privileges - right click on cmd exe & run as administrator)
using icacls doesn’t show the owner only the permissions:

C:\Users\vaugh>icacls “D:\Users\vaugh\Music\01 - HDTracks\03 - Hi-Res [DSD256 & Over]”
D:\Users\vaugh\Music\01 - HDTracks\03 - Hi-Res [DSD256 & Over] Everyone:(I)(OI)(CI)(F)

Successfully processed 1 files; Failed processing 0 files

C:\Users\vaugh>icacls “D:\Users\vaugh\Music\01 - HDTracks\03 - Hi-Res [DSD256 & Over]”
D:\Users\vaugh\Music\01 - HDTracks\03 - Hi-Res [DSD256 & Over] Everyone:(I)(OI)(CI)(F)

Successfully processed 1 files; Failed processing 0 files

So the icacls output via cmd window above looks identical. However, with PowerShell we can see that the “Owner” of the folder is BUILTIN\Administrators which is causing the issue:

PS D:\Users<me>\Music\01 - HDTracks> $myPathAsAdm = ‘D:\Users<me>\Music\01 - HDTracks\03 - Hi-Res [DSD256 & Over - Junction as admin]’
PS D:\Users<me>\Music\01 - HDTracks> $myPath = ‘D:\Users<me>\Music\01 - HDTracks\03 - Hi-Res [DSD256 & Over]’
PS D:\Users<me>\Music\01 - HDTracks> Get-Acl -literalpath $myPathAsAdm

Directory: D:\Users\<me>\Music\01 - HDTracks

Path Owner Access


03 - Hi-Res [DSD256 & Over - Junction as admin] BUILTIN\Administrators Everyone Allow FullControl

PS D:\Users\vaugh<me>\01 - HDTracks> Get-Acl -literalpath $myPath

Directory: D:\Users\<me>\Music\01 - HDTracks

Path Owner Access


03 - Hi-Res [DSD256 & Over] SIRV-PRIME-S<me> Everyone Allow FullControl

PS D:\Users\vaugh\Music\01 - HDTracks>

Yet, now the next day running the same command (still exists in Visual Code) creating a new junction folder (slightly different name) as admin I can now play native DSD512 to my Hugo2 - go figure!

CMD window run “as administrator”
mklink /J “D:\Users<me>\Music\01 - HDTracks\03 - Hi-Res [DSD256 & Over - Junction as admin]” “S:\Music\01 - HDTracks\03 - Hi-Res [DSD256 & Over]”

At least my experience is now in the forum so if others are having issues with Win10 to Hugo2 for Native DSD512 playback with the ASIO driver they have this to refer to!

Cheers
V/-

Hey @Mikael_Ollars,

I only have these “obscene” resolutions because I have 3 devices that can play them. :slight_smile:

My user account type is Administrator in windows not a Standard account which has less privileges. This is not the same as running an application “as Administrator” which is the local admin user when the OS is installed.

Enjoy your day.
Cheers
V/-

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So, are Chord falsely advertising the capabilities of the Hugo2 on their features page?? Hugo 2 DAC, Preamp & Headphone Amp | Chord Electronics

DSD support: Native playback supported. DSD64 (Single) to DSD512 (Octa-DSD)

Or, is there some fine print that I missed? With Roon the ASIO driver is playing “native” DSD512 with no issues via USB, although with a playlist with different resolutions I do hear some noise (best described as a type of click) at the end of the DSD512 track in the silence between tracks before it plays the next that is 24bit/176.4kHz track.

I’m not going to have an emotional response finding out that something that has this price point technically only receives PCM no matter how it is transported as the sound is the most pleasing to me that I have heard up to this price point. It is just, disappointing. I accepted the archaic legacy micro B USB input (due to lack of quality audiophile options - Audioquest are no longer Diamond USB micro B cables - I’ve managed to get a Carbon) & lack of MQA capabilities due to the 15% discount offered as part of the BFCM deals. I had listened to the previous version connected to an iPhone back in 2017 with some Shure 846’s and I was impressed with the sound. I still am with this Hugo2 model.

@Rugby can you please point me in the direction of actual product document that supports this? I’d appreciate it.

I did a quick shootout between my Roon Ready Lumin T2 via Kimber Kable Ascent series Balanced cables to my Schiit Audio Jotunhiem2 headphone amp & the Hugo2 with the supplied cable (while I wait for my AQ order to arrive) using my fav DSD512 track Piltch & Davis’s Horizon Blue from the Nagra 70th Anniversary Collection from NativeDSD. There is a difference in the sound stage. The Hugo2 being brand new and not run it yet still had a rather pleasant presentation to me. The Lumin T2 is good benchmark (haven’t listened to the T3) at the under $AUD6000.00 but is a network transport rather than a DAC.

Strictly speaking, “native DSD” is a bitstream format, so if a DAC can render that, it would not be false advertising for the manufacturer to say they support it, regardless of what the DAC does with it under the covers.

Hi @Mikael_Ollars,

I have to say that junction symbolic link folders are flakey for sure. My Roon library has split the album into two now so from tack 10 is a different album in “My Albums”& that I can’t display the second currently, I even had to Re-Analyze the track in the playlist to get the dynamic range to display. I’ll tried the Windows 3 finger salute still the DSD512 album is split.
So, I’ll need to do more RCA (root cause analysis) to figure out what is going on. I may need to bite the bullet & do away with the junction folder in the original Music location and enable the new target Music parent directory & redo all the tracks in my playlists that have DSD256 or greater.

Also, after updating the metadata tags in MusicBee Roon hasn’t yet displayed the updated data for the track title & artist. Even selecting the Prefer file in the metadata preferences hasn’t read the new metadata.

So yeah, flakey for sure with DSD512 files over junction symbolic links in windows 10!

So, to me there is a quirk if you like with Roon Server library functionality with DSD512 files over a Junction symbolic link folder.

Cheers
V/-

Hi all,

I am beginning to suspect an issue with Roon Server & the Chord Hugo as a target audio zone. I just purchased some additional albums 32bit/384kHz, DXD 32bit (still downloading) and another DSD512 album - as well as some multichannel DSD albums (not for Roon playback). This is so that I can create a playlist of all types of hi-res types to burn in the Hugo2 and do some shootout between different hi-res formats to different zones that support higher resolution.

I was listening to the first track on the 32bit/384kHz and at the 3:07min mark when the dynamic range started to increase only static come through to the Hugo2.

Track gain -5.5dB (-0.4dBTP) Dynamic Range 19.6 LU (R128)

I think I’ll do more testing and raise another topic once I have the DXD 32bit & the other DSD512 album downloaded.

I purchased Audirvāna Classic & the 32bit/384kHz album plays fine to the Hugo2. The target device is Digital Output (Chord Async USB 44.1kHz - 768kHz).

I am interested in people’s perspectives on what may be causing the issue here. I will be getting the Silent Angel Z1 Rhein Plus 32GB as my Roon Core sometime in the next 12 - 18 months, but I am rather keen to have a working solution with what I have using Windows10 to my Hugo2. Giving the feedback here for the issues with this higher-than-normal resolutions I may create a new topic for the Hugo2 & also reach out to Chord for their perspective.

I appreciate everyone’s time in providing a response, so thanks from me.

Cheers
V/-

Glad you took my choice of words in the sense they were intended! :wink:

I’m considering trying this out, as i happen to have a Chord Hugo2 also! (I have way to much gear and stuff, admittedly)

It’ll have to wait until tonight though…

I am quite well versed on the innards of Windows as i am 30+ years in the IT business, with a focus on Windows server side applications.

There is a difference between being an “administrator” by account type, and running in “elevated priviledge mode”. But the effects are a bit unclear on specific areas.

Your last post raise interesting questions, what is your processing speed while playing DSD512 and applying DSP such as volume levelling? That is HARD work for a lappy CPU!

Hey @Mikael_Ollars

I’ve been kicking around various IT circles since last century as well! :slight_smile:

In the end I have removed the junction, I was getting inconsistent results with DSD512 playback via both ASIO & WASAPI DoP - even messed up the transmission and degraded playback - corruption of the stream is the easiest term - Basically not music, just robot noise.

New development today was some albums I purchased today in terms of a 32bit/385kHz wav album, the single transmission fails & corrupts via Roon Server & also Audirvāna had issues on the second playthrough and randomly. Not sure if the Hugo2 is overheating, my windows soundcard drivers are corrupted or registry or what. OS hasn’t been reinstalled since getting the laptop a couple of years ago, so something to do over Christmas break - it may be an driver/os issue, heating issue(?) I am in QLD Australia, and we are hitting over 30 degrees celsius these days already & it is only going to get hotter - not because of global warming mind you… lol no issues with new DXD 32bit (352.8kHz) album either. I grabbed another DSD512.

I think that with 8-cores & 16-threads the CPU is fine for me. never has performance monitor in the task manager ever broken a sweat doing anything with Roon server running & 3 VMs in VMware running at the same time.

I think I need another thread specially for the Hugo2 & ultra/uber hi-res - i did not have any issues with my iFi xDSD Gyrphon or Lumin T2 with these resolutions so i am convinced that is specific to the Hugo2 & maybe the drivers. I am log a ticket with them as it is happening with Audirvāna as well.

I’ll do some testing with DSD512 etc. later with the iFi xDSD Gryphon.

I am keen to hear your experiences private DM me & we can discuss resolutions privately if you want.

Cheers
V/-

Quick update for those following…

Speaking with the guys at the store that I purchased the Hugo2 from, they suggested setting the Resync Delay to remove the transients when changing sample rates. 100ms didn’t remove the click/pop when changing between DSD & PCM but 500ms has made it much, much less noticeable. I play around with it. So, that is something that has been resolved - I am smiling again.

I’ll spend more time getting to know the Hugo2.

V/-

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And a thanks to you Vaughan for posing interesting questions, that has made me get the Hugo2 up front, and playing into the big setup. (It is usually used as a portable solution, with headphones)

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