Grouping error (again)

[Mark_Sealey]

Thanks to everyone who helped with this thread.

But I’ve just imported another 10 CD Box set where Tracks, Works, Groupings are “all over the place” and bear slim resemblance (for nearly half the quartets) to what’s on the CDs themselves. Not all but several. I can upload more specific screenshots if anyone has the patience to help please.

This is even though I have grouped each Work individually (1, 2, 3 etc to 16) with WorkID tags in Yate.

It’s here in MusicBrainz, which does appear to have, for an example, all six Opus 18 quartets listed properly… one to six.

It really does seem to be Grouping that’s going wrong - because when I set Edit Album > MULTI-PART COMPOSITION GROUPING to ‘Disable multi-part compositions on this album’ in the Album Editor, everything displays perfectly. All properly sequentially numbered. No mixes etc.

Other fields which I have experimented with are the ‘Metadata Preferences’, ‘CATALOG NUMBER’ and ‘PRODUCT CODE’ (again in the Album Editor).

None of these groups properly.

Here’s one example of the inconsistency:

I know this could be seen as a finicky aiming for the unattainable. But if there is a way to display all movements of the same work nicely indented, I’d love to know what it is, please .

Thanks in advance!

[DDPS]

@Mark_Sealey did you perform a force rescan?

[Mark_Sealey]

Yes; each time. I have a nice little workflow going

I’ve actually re-imported this 10 disk set four or five times; each time with all the usual ‘extras’ (clean library for deleted files, force rescan and server restart etc).

All to no avail .

If it’s simply because Roon (which doesn’t seem able reliably to identify the set; and says so) knows that - although this actually release is quite recent - the original recordings are from the 1970s and '80s - I could live with it and no grouping.

But I’d like to get to the bottom of why your (Thank you!) WorkID step hasn’t worked this time.

There’s also the fact that at the filesystem level (Folders) in Roon everything absolutely is named and grouped correctly. Yet so consistently fails in displaying.

[DDPS]

I might recommend de-identifying then re-identifying, unless you are not aiming for identification.

[Mark_Sealey]

I’ve done a Your files > Re-identify album in Album Editor > Album options many times. No change.

Is there an option actually to de-identify it, please?

FWIS, Roon never finds a 100% match with the exact art work and number etc.

Yet when I turn off grouping, all the titles always appear correctly:

[DDPS]

Yes there is. Album > edit > Identify Album > None of these look right

[Mark_Sealey]

Thanks, @DDPS; Yes - I’ve tried that several times. None of them does match. This is the closest:

Unfortunately it still has the same phenomena with Grouping.

When I select it, it detects 27 non-matching tracks:

But I don’t know what the Up and Down arrows do to help at all.

Certainly about 27 (a third of the 71 total tracks for this set) are wrong; so that’s encouraging.

But I’m not sure what to do to substitute correct ones for ‘red’ ones.

This thread suggests just ignoring them. I’ve tried that several times. Again, to no avail. Sometimes it makes groupings worse.

Strange, isn’t it!

[DDPS]

Just leave it unidentified then?

[Mark_Sealey]

Tried that, too - using metadata prefs etc set to ‘Prefer File’.

Unfortunately, it can make matters worse. CD 8’s Track 7 is actually another movement of another quartet altogether:

Although with multi-part disabled, it’s perfect:

And here’s the (incorrect) File Info for that track:

with the file path:

/roon/sys/storage/mounts/InternalStorage/Classical (late C18, early C19)/Beethoven; Complete String Quartets (Lindsays 1) with WorkIDs/CD8/07 - Alternative Finale to Quartet No. 13, Op. 130.flac

which seems impossible to edit!

Odd - also because when I check actual filenames (in Yate) the entire 10-CD set shows up correct to the last space, dot or quotation mark!

Something somewhere seems to be re-arranging and re-naming certain (but not all) tracks as displayed whenever Grouping is enabled, doesn’t it.

I’ve looked through all 71 filenames in the Finder as ripped by dBpoweramp; and failed to find a correlation (e.g. two semi-colons in a row, or some ‘hidden’ top-bit character) between the files which fail to display their titles (the - usually four - movements are all always 100% correct when wrongly grouped) properly with Grouping on and with it off.

[DDPS]

@Mark_Sealey

Unfortunately, it can make matters worse. CD 8’s Track 7 is actually another movement of another quartet altogether:

All of these are work ID 13, which seems wrong…tracks 1-5 should be their own ID, etc.

[AndyR (Andy)]

You guys are far ahead of me with this - and the behaviour may have changed anyway - but if I’m remembering correctly from the last time I tried to fix something similar, I concluded that if you have grouping enabled Roon always uses external metadata for titling irrespective of ‘use local data’ settings.

[mjw]

Yes, I’d agree. Moreover, Roon recognizes combinations of WORK and PART, not WORKID. I can provide an example later today.

Furthermore, I have noticed that Roon doesn’t always update correctly, even when tagging is correct. Sometimes I have to delete an album, clean up the library, and then reimport to see the changes.

[Mike_O_Neill]

I have never seen the word “number” spelled out , always No. or No or even #

Maybe try changing a few files to No. ?

I have these “ideas” when caffeine levels are low

Is there a hidden [Composition] tag Roon defaults to [Work] but a second tag may confuse things

I had confusion with a hidden [Previously released as] tag a few months back

[Mark_Sealey]

Thanks, @DDPS,

@DDPS

All of these are work ID 13, which seems wrong…tracks 1-5 should be their own ID, etc

From the way they’re listed here, you’d think so, wouldn’t you… different title etc.

But in fact they are all movements which Beethoven wrote as part of his String Quartet Opus 130.

I’d like to group them to display as one; one work with seven possible movements. That’s why I’ve given them all the same WorkID, ‘13’:

However you look at it, though, the ‘Alternative Finale’ is incorrectly identified. Roon thinks it’s part of Beethoven’s very last String Quartet, Opus 135.

even though it seems to be editable in the Track editor:

But isn’t!

Or doesn’t seem to be: I’ve tried selecting each of the other two options here (‘No. 16’ and my own string in ‘(blank’), re-scanning; and even restarting the server etc.

The only way I can get this grouping - which is, in essence, the whole of this Box Set 's CD 8:

to work is to select Disable Multi Part.

As I say, I’m not leveling any kind of substantive criticism at Roon!

I appreciate that there are times when complicated, specific re-issues (this is the 1970s, 1980s cycle of the Lindsays) are hard to identify.

Accepting that, I think what I’m hoping to find an answer to is how to ‘manually’ group tracks according to - in this case - meobements of individual string quartets.

[Mark_Sealey]

Andy,

@AndyR

…if you have grouping enabled…

Thanks!

I think that seems right and appears to be another way of referring to my experience of having to select DISABLE multi-part compositions here:

In which case, Yes:

Is there somewhere else (I couldn’t find it) where I have to disable Grouping, please?

[Mark_Sealey]

Thanks, @mjw

@mjw

Yes, I’d agree. Moreover, Roon recognizes combinations of WORK and PART, not WORKID. I can provide an example later today.

Yes. I set my WORK and PART tags in Yate. They are correct in this case… I’ve checked and re-checked

That’s why I felt it wise also to set WorkID.

Furthermore, I have noticed that Roon doesn’t always update correctly, even when tagging is correct. Sometimes I have to delete an album, clean up the library, and then reimport to see the changes.

Indeed. I’ve sometimes applied changes and seen indication(s) of that on the Library page (spin at top, ‘Background Audio Analysis’. I’m 100% OK with that. But have been through all the usual steps (waiting, restarting, restarting server, waiting) each time I’ve experimented with this set.

[Mark_Sealey]

Thanks, Mike!

@Mike_O_Neill

I have never seen the word “number” spelled out , always No. or No or even #
Maybe try changing a few files to No. ?

You never know, do you. So I looked at all the tracks’ titles in Yate; others which show correctly (in Roon) also have ‘Number’. Some which display incorrectly don’t. So the fault/phenomenon doesn’t follow the title. All the actual filenames, OTOH, are consistent.

Is there a hidden [Composition] tag Roon defaults to [Work] but a second tag may confuse things

I’d like to know that, as it would explain things, perhaps, wouldn’t it.

[mjw]

This is how I tag works. In Roon, I see this.

Tagging looks like this.

And, my import settings are predominantly set to prefer file.

However, Roon still doesn’t tag things as I like and ignores my track names. I recently started a new library database, so brought these in to demonstrate. Previously, I had removed the MusicBrainz IDs, and, IIRC, the albums adopted my tags, but the albums were, for the most part, unidentified.

[Mark_Sealey]

Thanks, @mjw - I have all the relevant Import Settings set to Prefer File:

[AndyR (Andy)]

@Mark_Sealey

Is there somewhere else (I couldn’t find it) where I have to disable Grouping, please?

If there is, I didn’t find it either…

In my scenario it was a pretty obscure composition, and the metadata was very obviously wrong; but whatever else I did Roon always used the MusicBrainz metadata if the group flag was set. My conclusion was that I needed to edit the MusicBrainz data - but that was looking non-trivial, and I decided to leave well enough alone.

I don’t have a solution for you. I was just hoping that my observation - if you could validate it - might help you work out what was going on.

I will look up the album though - to check I’m not making this up!