Hegel H390 - volume changes at its own while using Airplay

Sebastian_Fels · July 6, 2020, 4:33pm

Core Machine (Operating system/System info/Roon build number)

Desktop PC with Windows 10 (64 bit) and Roon Version 1.7 (build 571) installed.

Network Details (Including networking gear model/manufacturer and if on WiFi/Ethernet)

Desktop PC and Hegel H390 are both connected via ethernet cables to a Fritzbox 7490.

Audio Devices (Specify what device you’re using and its connection type - USB/HDMI/etc.)

I control the Roon core with the Android Roon app installed on my mobile. As long as we are all waiting for the Roon update for the Hegel H390 I am forced to use Airplay to play music on the Hegel H390 with its internal DAC/Streamer.

Description Of Issue

Hi,

I have noticed some odd behavior with my Hegel H390 amp regarding volume control. I use Roon via Airplay and I have noticed that the volume shown in the Android Roon app is different compared to the volume on the H390 - not much, but it is always a bit off by 2 db or so. When I change the volume on the H390, the volume in Roon changes as well so both the H390 and Roon do communicate in some way. However, when I change the volume in Roon, it sometimes takes volume changes of 5 db or more before the H390 even reacts.

I can live with that as I usually use the RC8 remote of the H390 to control volume. However, a very annoying thing only occurring very recently is that the volume of the H390 changes at its own will. When I use the RC8 to change volume to e.g. 35, it changes back to 37 pretty much immediately. This happens over and over again. When I change the volume to 33, it stays at 33, but when a new track begins to play, it often changes back volume to 37 again. This behavior can be reproduced at certain other volume levels as well.

I cannot tell whether this behavior is connected to Roon, to the latest firmware release of the H390 or to Airplay in general. I already contacted the Hegel support, but they think this most likely refers to Airplay. However, since I have never noticed this behavior before, something must have changed either on the Roon side or the Hegel side. Maybe somebody here can provide me some more details.

Thanks and best regards,
Sebastian

noris · July 6, 2020, 9:05pm

Hi @Sebastian_Fels,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for reaching out! Can I please request that you share a screenshot of your Roon Settings -> Audio -> Cogwheel -> Device Setup for your Hegel zone? This is an example of what this should look like:

Please show both the regular and the advanced area (in two screenshots if needed).

Do you also control the Hegel through any other means, such as a manufacturer app? I wonder if perhaps the volume is decreased in the Hegel app (and the lower volume happens on the hardware side)?

Rockhound · July 6, 2020, 9:39pm

@noris Hegel doesn’t have a proprietary app.

@Sebastian_Fels - do you possibly have another device also connecting to the Hegel via Airplay - Spotify Connect from your phone or laptop for example? That might explain what is happening.

Sebastian_Fels · July 7, 2020, 5:46am

@noris I will provide the screenshots later this day, but there won’t be much to see as I am forced to use Airplay in the current development status of the Hegel firmware. As far as I can remember, Volume Control is set to Device and under Show Advanced, I have set some volume limits to avoid accidental high volume levels.
Also, until now, I haven’t used any other means to control the Hegel except the remote RC8 and the Android Roon app. The amp is brand new (just arrived last Friday) and the only thing I did was enabling the Hegel in Roon and updating the Hegel to the latest available firmware. There are no other devices connected to the Hegel except a wired Ethernet connection and of course loud speakers.
If you are wondering how I can tell that the volume changes are an unusual behavior - this is a replacement device. I had another H390 available before that had a defect after a few weeks. But I can assure you that I haven’t noticed something similar with my previous H390 as the volume changes really are annoying.

@Rockhound I guess this answers your question as well. Until now, I have not used any other device or app to play music on the Hegel.

noris · July 7, 2020, 5:19pm

Thanks for the additional info @Sebastian_Fels, do share those screenshots when possible.

Arlen · July 7, 2020, 7:30pm

I also have a Hegel H390, and my unit behaves exactly the same. There is communication between the H390 and Roon: increasing the volume in Roon increases the volume of the H390, and vice versa… but there is no similarity in numbers. A Roon volume of 20 may mean a H390 volume of 30. A plus 1 or minus 1 on the H390’s remote may result in plus 3 or minus 4 in Roon. I have set a volume limit of 45 on my Hegel, but Roon’s volume will go above that. I have to set a similar limit in Roon, but this number doesn’t correspond with the H390’s volume.
It doesn’t really matter to me personally, because I use usb until the Hegel will be RoonReady, but I can understand this is frustrating for people who depend on Airplay.
I assume the fault is related to Hegel not Roon. My guess is that Hegel amps only accept plusses and minusses, and that these get mixed up when the amp is switched between sources.
Just a guess, though…

Sebastian_Fels · July 7, 2020, 8:09pm

As I already mentioned, there is not much going on in the device setup

Sebastian_Fels · July 7, 2020, 8:26pm

The thing is though that I haven’t used any other source than network on my Hegel. I literally plugged in the mains of the Hegel, pressed the power button and switched to network as source. Until now, I have never switched sources again.

Nevertheless, good to know that I am not the only one having problems with volume control of the H390!

noris · July 9, 2020, 2:12am

Hi @Sebastian_Fels,

Thanks for the screenshot and for @Arlen confirming that they’re seeing the same.

Can I please ask both of you to reproduce this issue, note the exact local time + date + volume (in Roon/on display) + track it occurs on and let me know here?

Once I have this info I can enable diagnostics mode for your Cores to see if we can gather more info in logs.

paulie · July 9, 2020, 5:11am

I noticed the same thing with my H390. If using Roon to control the H390 via Airplay, changes in volume via the Hegel remote will reflect in Roon, and changing the volume in Roon will change it on the Hegel.

I have max volume set at 50 on the Hegel. Roon still behaves as if the max volume is 100; so, if I change the Hegel volume up 1 tick, it will go up 2 ticks in Roon (0-50 scale for the Hegel, 0-100 scale for Roon). If the max volume on the Hegel is set for a not-even factor of 100 then I can see how it will result in wonky numbers in Roon. For now I leave the max volume at 100 and hope I don’t press something on accident.

Sebastian_Fels · July 9, 2020, 6:11am

Hi @noris,

just to make sure that I understood correctly…

When I listen to music e.g. this evening, I note the exact local time and date, play a track and then start changing volume with my RC8 one by one and note how the volume changes are reflected on the display of the Hegel and whether it switches back to a different volume. Then I’ll do it the other way around by changing volume with the Roon app. After this, I post my notes here.

Or did I misunderstood you entirely and you need to know when I will do these tests beforehand?

Does it matter whether I play a local file or a tidal track?

Arlen · July 9, 2020, 6:24am

Hi Noris, thanks for your interest. I will do it this Friday evening or Saturday (I’m away for two days).

noris · July 9, 2020, 2:39pm

Hi @Sebastian_Fels,

Yes, this is correct. Roon has a “rolling log” so once you run these tests, please let me know the timestamps and I’ll enable diagnostics mode.

@paulie brings up an interesting point -

I would also check to see if this behavior occurs with the Comfort and Max for the Volume Limits set to the default 100% or if this issue only occurs with Volume Limits changes, as that would be a great data point to have.

Do let me know how testing goes, thanks!

Arlen · July 10, 2020, 3:55pm

Hi Noris,
I am starting my test now. Local time in The Netherlands is 17:50 hours, July 10th.
Hegel H390 volume is 30
Hegel max volume is 45 (set on device)
Airplay zone volume is 19 (in Roon)
Airplay zone max volume is 45 (hand set in Roon)

Track playing is ‘We added it up’ by My Brightest Diamond.
Pressing play caused the H390 to display a volume of 9. I then turned it up with the remote control to 30. Roon volume then showed 66.

Now turning down the volume in Roon to 45 made the Hegel display a volume of 21.

End of test: 17:55

noris · July 10, 2020, 5:34pm

Thanks for running these tests @Arlen! I have activated diagnostics mode for your account and what this action does is automatically upload a log-set to our servers.

Can I please ask that you confirm the other aspect I mentioned in my previous message?

Thanks!

Sebastian_Fels · July 10, 2020, 5:50pm

Hi @noris,

I startet my Roon Core at 19:05 (Germany) on 10th of July, the Hegel was turned on at 19:06 with source set to Network and its standard launch volume at 20. The Roon app was started at 19:07, which didn’t change the volume on the Hegel display, even though the Hegel zone volume in Roon was at 33.

At 19:08 I started playing the track “Hustlin” by John Craigie on Tidal (Album “Asterisk the Universe”).
The volume on the Hegel display immediatly changed to 33. Then I started to increase the volume with the RC8 one by one:

Increasing to 34 with the RC8 resulted in 34 on the Roon zone as well.
Increasing to 35 with the RC8 immediatly caused the Hegel to jump from 35 to 37. On the Roon zone 35 was shown.
Increasing to 38 with RC8 resulted in 38 on the Roon zone as well.
Increasing to 39 with the RC8 immediatly caused the Hegel to jump from 39 to 40. On the Roon zone 39 was shown.
I continued this procedure to 44 and another desynchronisation occured at 42.

Next I tried to decrease the volume of the Roon zone with the Roon app starting at 44 on both the Hegel and the app using the “minus”-button as well as the slider:

It didn’t matter how far I turned the volume down, the volume on the Hegel always jumped back to 44.
I had to change the volume on the Hegel with the RC8 to 40 first and then I could use the slider in the app to change the volume down to 14. However, the Hegel display showed 17.

On 19:18, I reseted the volume limits for the Hegel zone:

I could reproduce the exact same behavior.

At that moment the track “Son of a man” was already playing from the same album because the tests took too long…

Hope that helps!

Best regards,
Sebastian

Arlen · July 10, 2020, 6:12pm

Hi Noris,
A new test, now with min and max volume set in Roon to 0 and 45. Comfort level is still at 40.
Test starting at 20:09 hours. Same track as before.
Hegel H390 volume set at 30.
Hegel max is 45.
Roon volume at start of test is 25.

At start of music, the volume of the Hegel display turns to 12. Roon volume is still 25.
Turning the Hegel volume to 25 with the remote results in a Roon volume of 55.

Turning the volume down in Roon to 40 results in 18 on the Hegel display.

End of test 20:12 hours.

EDIT: I mistakenly thought I had saved the resetted min max and comfort settings, but this was untrue.

Arlen · July 10, 2020, 6:22pm

So this will be a new test, now with min, max and comfort at 0, 100 and 100.

Starting volume on the Hegel display is 15.
Starting volume in Roon is 15.
Start of music is 20:19 hours, same track.

Hegel volume jumps to 14, Roon stays at 30 at start of track.

Turning the Hegel volume up with the remote to 25 gives a Roon volume of 55.
Turning down the volume in Roon to 30 withthe slider results in a Hegel volume of 14.
End of test 20:22 hours.

noris · July 10, 2020, 8:49pm

Thanks for the timestamps @Arlen & @Sebastian_Fels ! Let me get these logs over to the team for closer inspection, and once that’s been complete we will reach out once more. Thanks!

john · July 16, 2020, 5:50am

Hello @Arlen and @Sebastian_Fels,

We took a look at @Arlen’s logs regarding the Hegel volume behavior, I’ve included a small section below.

[mdns/dacp] [airplay/dacp] got command 'setvolume' value=-22.8 // Hegel sends volume of -22.8dB
[airplay/client] Sending SET_PARAMETER volume -22.8db          // Roon confirms volume of -22.8dB
[mdns/dacp] [airplay/dacp] got command 'setvolume' value=-22.2 // Hegel sends volume of -22.2dB
[airplay/client] Sending SET_PARAMETER volume -22.2db          // Roon confirms volume of -22.2dB
[mdns/dacp] [airplay/dacp] got command 'setvolume' value=-21.6 // Hegel sends volume of -21.6dB
[airplay/client] Sending SET_PARAMETER volume -21.9db          // Roon confirms volume of -21.6dB
[mdns/dacp] [airplay/dacp] got command 'setvolume' value=-20.7 // Hegel sends volume of -20.7db
[airplay/client] Sending SET_PARAMETER volume -20.7db          // Roon confirms volume of -20.7dB
[mdns/dacp] [airplay/dacp] got command 'setvolume' value=-20.1 // Hegel sets volume of -20.1dB
[airplay/client] Sending SET_PARAMETER volume -20.1db          // Roon confirms volume of -20.1dB

The logs show that Roon and the Hegel agreeing on the volume of the device, I couldn’t find any discrepancies in the logs.

Roon uses the same code across all AirPlay devices. If volume synchronization were broken it would happen on all AirPlay devices.

It appears that whatever is causing this behavior is happening on the Hegel, outside of the view of Roon.

-John