How can I make my system better?

I suggest you decide if you just want to tweak the source or really pursue better sound. In other words your very nice speakers would probably sound best with a dedicated 2 channel integrated amp or separates. But that’s a whole new ballgame.

you are right :slight_smile: Sorry.

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Lose the AV amp unless you are doing multichannel home theater as well. You have what is referred to as a ‘mullet’ i.e. where one part of your system (speakers in your case) is much better than the other parts. The solution (and there’s lots of great choices out there) should, unfortunately for you, cost about as much or more than the speakers. Source first: garbage in, garbage out, no matter how good the speakers might be.

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In the vinyl era maybe. Plenty of great mullet systems in the digital age with speakers first. I would go as far to say these days that speakers and room interaction are no1.

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Well, that’s debatable, but I was lumping amp, pre, and DAC all as ‘source.’ I think for that level of speaker one can do better than a Denon AV for two channel music replay.

I haven’t heard recent Denon gear but chances are that the amp section is quite adequate.And you can always spend more money later. With the room-speaker interaction having much more of an effect, most efficient thing to do would be to first calibrate the amp with Audyssey, and then get the music to it at 24/192 using either an external streamer with coax out or a HEOS extension for Roon…

Audyssey internal processing is capped or fixed at 48 kHz on most/all components.

AJ

Which, really, should be of primary concern to the bats and dolphins. MultyEQ XT32 that this unit has may not be the best room correction engine in the world, but the OP already has it for free, why not start with that.

Your suggestion about inputting 192 kHz was the only reason for the caveat.

AJ

Well, 24/192 is the best you can feed to the unit, so might as well get the best possible signal in. Then compare results of feeding that signal straight to the AKM vs. processing it with Audyssey first. From all I’ve heard about modern B&Ws, they could benefit from some heavy equalization, if anything.

True, €€€ will be needed but I will start with little steps.

I think this is the way I will go. My wishlist includes a McIntosh but for the moment I’ll have to stick with the Denon. I had older B&W’s a year ago, the new ones are a very big improvement. So an iFi Zen DAC with a RoPieee endpoint will probably improve a bit until I win the Lotto and can buy that big amp :wink:

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McIntosh would be nice… And I knew there must be one person out there that likes B&W’s new sound :rofl:

I ma not sure if Zen would be much of an improvement over what the Denon can do, but getting Chromecast out of the picture wouldn’t hurt.

While a McIntosh would possibly sound nicer (and definitely look better), I’d still say that doing proper room correction is the biggest bang for the buck you can get. Whether to use Audyssey in the Denon or create a filter with something else and use Roon to apply it is another question.

Measurements from Stereophile

The 804 D4 must be used with amplifiers that don’t have problems driving 2 ohms.

1221BW804fig1

… tell me, that your Denon really isn’t a good match for them.
Hypex’s NCORE or the newer NILAI amplifier DIY kits can handle such a load at comparatively low prices and at record breaking low distortion values.

I wouldn’t sweat about streamer/DAC investments, since today’s state of the art budget offerings measure and sound very transparent, so that anything higher end would really have a hard time to audibly gain better sound.

Then, there’s their room response …
image

Fig.7 Bowers & Wilkins 804 D4, spatially averaged, 1/6-octave response in JA’s listening room (red) and of the PSB Synchrony T600 (blue).

… and JA’s summary …

The Bowers & Wilkins 804 D4’s measured performance is enigmatic, with positive aspects—the relatively high sensitivity, the superbly quiet enclosure, the well-controlled dispersion, and the excellent pair matching—that must be set against others, like the demanding impedance, the excessive high frequencies, and the resonances in the port’s and upper-frequency units’ output.—John Atkinson

… telling me, that some serious attempt at digital room correction seems in order to extract their full potential, and not just in the low registers …

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You have a couple of options available with your current AV amp.

  1. connect a Roon compatible endpoint to the AV apps coaxial or optical digital inputs. The HEOS side shows 24/192, so I’ll guess the coaxial and optical would be the same as they’ll likely share the same DAC. You could use the Chromecast with TV, connected direct to a TV hdmi port to get Roon display.

  2. connect a Roon compatible endpoint to an external DAC and then to an analogue input. You could use the Chromecast with TV, connected direct to a TV hdmi port to get Roon display.

  3. replace amp, get a Roon compatible endpoint, DAC. You could use the Chromecast with TV, connected direct to a TV hdmi port to get Roon display.

The choice is yours.

What I noticed when searching for your AV amp, was that it has an optional Audyssey MultEQ XT32 setup microphone. Do you have this. This suggests you’ll get room correction with it.

I know what I’d do, but it’s not about me :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Buy a serious stereo amp. Any stereo amp in the low price tier model will improve your sound. Using your loudspeakers with the Denon makes no sense. You could buy 1000$ speakers with a good tube amp that would be 1/3 of the price of your setup and sound much better.

So: A dedicated stereo amp. (Michi Rotel S5/P5 will match incredible good your D4. McIntosh Integrated, Luxman Integrated)

Buy a better dac/streamer and then hook it up via balanced cables (xlr) to your amp. Use good power cords for your components .

Your system will sound 10x better already. From there further improve it. (Upsampling etc)

So, I have listened to B&W at a dealers who is also a friend. What we found is that class D, that is likely in the Denon, is not always a good match. It tends to be lighter in the mid range as are the B&W. I’m generalizing, but likely true of class D in an AV amp. We found this true of some of the class D NAD that he had, that sounded great with other speakers, just not as good with the B&W.

We found that class AB amps that usually have a better mid range, was a better match for the B&W, he had very good results pairing then with Rega amps.

I found a similar thing when I moved from a class D PS Audio Sprout to a Class AB Schiit Vidar with my Dynaudio Excite 14. The midrange was dramatically improved.

The Schiit Vidar with a Saga preamp is probably around a $1000. If you went with a Rega io, that is around $700. Marantz, Rotel and Cambridge Audio make reasonable quality, not too expensive amps that will improve the 2 channel performance.

A final recommendation, that I made to a friend to was getting a Yamaha S-501. Even comes with a built in DAC that will get you started off. You can pick up units for around $500. I was very impressed with this amp. Looks cool as well.

Amps will make more of a difference than a new DAC.

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Exactly what I’ve been saying. Go class A/B or more higher end class D. I’d bet my mid-seventies, 60 w/pc Naim 160 I picked up in 2020 for $450 from my dealer would blow most AV amps out of the water. What it won’t do, lol, is output to nine speakers. Thats what an AV amp is for. And then with something like the iFi Zen on top, the op would see a significant improvement. As well as modest upgrades to the cabling.

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A Peachtree Nova might pair well with those B&W speakers. Good quality class D amplification.

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Aim higher!

But first… what do you mean by “better”?

For many years my 2-channel listening was supplied by a very good surround processor (in direct mode) to a very good multi-channel amp. Over the past year or two I’ve built a pure 2-channel system replacing the processor with a stereo pre and monoblock speakers.

Clarity? Increased.
Soundstage? Night and difference. Just wider, bolder, better placement, and I’m now hearing what every manufacturer describes their speakers do. The ability for speakers to disappear should be everyone’s goal. This takes good electronics and proper placement.
Depth? Yes, finally. I need to do additional room treatment but sound has depth and is no longer flat. Flat now drives me crazy :slight_smile:

But, if you want to start with a better DAC, I would start with a Schiit Yggdrasil+ and look upwards from there. This is a very competent and pleasing DAC to listen to. There are better DACs of course but I like how “analog” or “musical” the Yggdrasil is. But, downstream from that, as others have said, you really should look into better amplification. The B&Ws are not easy to drive and will reward with good amps. Depending on how much power you need (volume levels), you may not need to spend much cash to get better power. B&W is sold everywhere. Go to a dealer and ask them to throw different amps on the speakers so you can get a taste of what the different amps do to the speakers. The Denon is certainly not doing those speakers any favors.

Good luck.

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