At first I was going to reply with something along the lines of same old same old but upon further reading I came to the realization that you are doing your best to bridge the gap so to speak. And for that I thank you.
Do I fully agree with you? No but that doesn’t give me the right to disparage you or or your remarks, just as you have not disparaged me.
Let’s continue to keep this discussion on civil terms. Happy Holidays!
Thank you I couldn’t have said it better. In that regard I have high respect for John Darko when he is ridiculing other reviewers and forum fighters saying: this cable blows it out of the water, that cable destroyed the other etc.
No, most changes are subtle. Even when the price differences are several thousand bucks. Some reviewers get it others don’t. And those who write honest and down to earth reviews are not necessarily more boring.
I really don’t care if people lie to me. I like to believe I’m smarter than the average bear and can ignore such glossy tri-folds. There are regulated industries that work to stop such practices because a lie from that industry puts people at risk; audio isn’t one of them. Some of the marketing is downright entertaining.
Are some people outright duped? Sure but that isn’t just audio. It’s why I spend time on forums. I’ll give you enough info from my experience, education, background, etc. and you make your own decision. But I’m not trying to fight a marketing team. If enough people decide the claim in bunk that company will go away. A lot of companies have been around far longer than they probably should be so someone is finding value in their claims. Those people probably smile a lot more than me who says they are the ones in the wrong?
Sure, I’m with you there. For me, it’s all the other people, perhaps more trusting and less capable of detecting mendacity, that they are also lying to. That disturbs me. Those people need someone to care about them.
There are laws about what is/is not allowed in advertising/marketing and enforced by the FTC.
IP is correct in asserting that agencies are mostly focused on questionable marketing which can put people at risk for their health or their financial future (think investments not overly expensive cables).
Otherwise, such cases are usually handled at the court level, think, the class action lawsuit about hard drive size.
Most of the sellers that are being discussed here are not worth the time or energy of a law firm to test the marketing claims in court with a class action lawsuit, and besides, you need to meet certain criteria before the court would certify you as a class.
You can always sue if you want, but it is expensive and time-consuming.
You lost me at this. Audio equipment can measure wonderfully but sound terrible. Maybe that beautiful linear frequency response hurts my ears? Maybe I actually like the distortion that analog components introduce? And then this:
That’s the one thing you should not do when judging your audio. In general, I like to listen to music, not measurements.
I also like to listen to music not measurements 
But that is not the point. The whole discussion here is about how to avoid snake oil from “truth” in audio gear.
I don’t have the time or the opportunity to a lot of blind test (comparison) so I need other element’s in the potential purchasing process (measurements, comparisons, reviews (hard to trust - sadly), recommendation etc. etc. If I than combine these elements, than the time has come (may bee) to say “Ok - let’s try this product”.
Merry Christmas to Holland
Torben
Then, very likely something else is the problem in said system - I’d rather look at speakers and/or room acoustics as an example to fix that…
That could easily be manipulated and added at will by using DSP, outside of Roon though.
You wouldn’t have to go through expensive and endless years of component mix and match, where you’d be stuck with one “mix” at a time, unless you keep many components at hand.
In the end it might even turn out, that it’s more about the gear and the experimenting, rather than the music…
You might not like the fact too much, that actual scientific research at the NRC regarding loudspeakers and rooms has long shown, that neutral, linear and undistorted measuring components are always preferred by listeners of all sorts and colors under double blind, controlled conditions.
See here, if really interested and open minded about the best possible music experience in your home.
But there is no problem in the system: the measurements told us we have a beautiful linear frequency response, right? And yet it might still sound terrible, because my personal preference does not like linear frequency responses, but prefers that bump in the bass, accentuated mids and rolled off highs. So if you were to measure my system, the measurement would say something is wrong.
The thing is: measurements are useless, since everything (everything) comes down to personal preference. Nobody listens to a system because it measures perfectly. You listen to a system because you like it.
Regarding room correction: I am a big fan of DSP and room correction! I used to be in the ‘nobody touches my signal path’ camp, but I fully converted to Team DSP. For the same reason: if I can match the sound closer to my personal preference, why would I want to listen to a system that measures perfectly?
I agree with the personal pref. But from my experience prefs change and can be understood and cultivated so I’ll use measurements to test, understand and adjust my prefs. Like going to school, you learn some patters to enhance your innate skills. But sometimes I do not trust my innate skills and intuition so is nothing wrong to stick to the pattern or use it as a constant feedback.
Also might be easier to experiment various prefs building on a flat start. Maybe not but it sounds a logical way of building a path.
I rencently bought a balanced power conditionner.
I knew about balanced power from my studio background but never got to try it.
One day I saw one for a good price, the reviews were amazing, saying things like it makes to whole system sound much better and dynamic, more 3D, blacker backgrounds, stuff like that.
When I got the unit first thing I noticed was that the transformer in the unit made a mechanical noise which is louder than my system’s noise. Pretty annoying. Then I played some music to listen to what it did to the sound and the only difference I could tell was that it smeared the transient attack, the reviewers would’ve called this smoother top end but in my opinion I just lost information.
I’m a sound engineer and I’m used to hype in the studio business but I gotta say in the audiophile world a lot of what we read are straight up lies!
Needless to say I returned that unit for a refund.
Measurements mostly look at at a single frequency, or noise, not agility - well, slew-rate can be measured, but it’s rarely listed.
Who knew?!?!?!? 
Why are we talking about measurements versus listening when no snake oil product ever, as in never - no way no how - does any measuring, let alone publish said measurements. The lack of measurements is one of the big RED FLAGS one can use to tell snake oil from “truth”. And magazines like Stereophile, who can’t stop patting themselves on the back about actually doing measurements, ever, as in never - no way no how - publish measurements for things like wires, power supplies and network switches. Another giant RED FLAG.
Thing is, most consumers could be given all the test numbers in the world, but have no idea what they mean or how to interpret them (I don’t). i.e. what’s your baseline? Perhaps one is used to listening to an overly bright system and that’s what they like. Then it’s best to audition.
For example: the Naim Atom SINAD measured ‘poorly’ on ASR, yet many enjoy it much more than overly bright, ‘perfectly’ measuring bright Chi-Fi Sabre dac chips that are so highly praised over there (and its been a bestseller for Naim). I know I do. You have to listen and compare, and read between the lines, so to speak, of other’s listening experiences. As said above, some poorly measuring gear can sound great, other perfect measuring gear sound sterile. (I much preferred my 2004 Naim Unitiqute vs a much more recent and better measuring Matrix Mini-I Pro 3, both going through the same vintage Naim amp).
Sorry I woke up in the wrong side of the bed yesterday. It’s just that the evangelism from either side is unnecessary. I certainly don’t believe in the fantastical claims made by some with every little cable tweak (as @ipeverywhere says, it’s usually a LOT more subtle than that, and I’ve even had a case where the $$ power cable I bought made things much worse) , but I also don’t think anyone should take critical listening out of the equation over a bunch of numbers from an AP.
I guess in the audio world folks are looking for that nirvana effect and your mileage will vary compared to next person with the same exact product.
–MD
This is a good point and true for most people. What’s required is a way of narrowing the field before selecting products to listen to. I admit to using measurements here as well as reading lots of reviews and looking for products where no one has anything bad to report.
So I see the point but you can use measurements to help you decide why you like something, sort of reversed engineered from listening if you like. Buy reviewing measurements for products you like and comparing a picture may/will start to emerge. I suspect this is the same point as @Traian_Boldea was making.
Yes, same… Kind of reverse engineering in order to understand and refine.
Thanks
My experience has been that upgrading to more expensive analog interconnects can audibly improve my listening experience, but upgrading digital ones never has.
How can you be sure that Amir has no agenda? I’d be very skeptical, just like you instructed in the earlier message.