Yes, I understand there may have been some personal attacks I never even saw because the thread just came to my attention. There were some worthwhile points made on both sides, though, and I think the mods are too quick to just shut off conversation.
Yes, Roon pays for hosting this forum and its primary purpose is to support use of the product – and I suppose help with marketing the product. But I do also feel like censoring threads that may be viewed as critical of the product reduces the overall credibility of the forum that all points of view are allowed to have equal treatment. It also feels like the most conservative Roonies (“no changes! It’s perfect!”) get the last word a lot of the time.
For example, just because the Roon team has clarified that folder view will never be implemented doesn’t mean you close that thread. Anyone with a point of view on it, unless they unleash a torrent of personal insults, should be able to state that POV, IMHO.
I do agree with policing personal attacks like a hawk. Audiogon and Computer Audiophile are two great (er…terrible) examples of forums that can feel like a food riot from Soylent Green. But I don’t think you have to lock threads to accomplish civility. It has a feel of trying to massage the conversations towards the positive or towards the POV of the most established conservative Roonies.
I will also say, that while some of the comments critical of Roon go to the level of rudeness – including the tone that Roon users are not computer savvy – responses like “then go use another piece of software” feel equally as rude; they are just not direct insults. Each opinion on the software is equally valid to that person. And frankly sometimes Roon needs that feedback so they can gauge, despite the gushing from some of the Roon faithful, when the Emperor Has No Clothes.
Oh come on. He was a non-owning, non-interested flamer who had opinions but no suggestions. If he had made feature requests, well and good. But his only purpose was to mouth off about something he didn’t even own.
And his opinions, based on his admitted limited time the program, were ill-considered opinions at that.
There are scads of critical threads throughout this forum. Read mine.
Nothing wrong with constructive criticism. And we are quite capable of that as well versed users. But some of the language used both in the thread you refer to and his follow up thread showed he did not respect the views of those who did not agree with him. Critical yes. Abusive, no.
We don’t mod comments or close threads because they are critical of Roon. The criticisms are all there to be seen, unless they are so full of invective and bad language as to be unsalvageable. I’ve seen that maybe three times and I think the posters were either drunk or had other issues.
We mod comments and close threads when people talk about each other in ways that obscure the discussion, particularly when a tide of people start joining in. In the thread you refer to, people were “piling on” and accusing the original poster of trolling. We mod that to prevent the content, including the criticism, from being obscured by smoke and flames.
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James_I
(The truth is out there but not necessarily here)
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There’s a difference between adopting the views of a poster and saying that a thread shouldn’t be locked. Nor do I mean to encourage or express a preference for critical threads.
As I said, I’m not for abusive language. It appears most of that was deleted because there were just a few instances left in the thread.
I just don’t see the need or justification for closing threads. Delete the abuse. And to me, that includes suggestions that people go elsewhere.
Totally agree with this. It just doesn’t require locking the thread.
We close threads to put out fires. We had to close this one twice as the OP made a “last reply” in Support (now shifted to the subject thread) which inevitably attracted further responses. Moderating posts in an active flame war without closing the thread doesn’t work.
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James_I
(The truth is out there but not necessarily here)
7
Well, I’ve never tried to be a mod, so I cannot argue with you on that point. I do appreciate the work that mods do. I would certainly though prefer if there was a way to put out the fire without throwing the baby out with the bathwater, to mix metaphors.
Having managed forum moderators for multiple companies, I’m in 100% agreement with andybob’s statements. The roon mods manage this forum with a very (admirably) light touch.
2 Likes
James_I
(The truth is out there but not necessarily here)
9
I still feel there is a tendency to close critical threads versus others. As above, I am not trying to induce or defend any critical threads and I am a dedicated Roon user. I just don’t like to see expression stifled except as necessary to maintain civility.
For example, I don’t think the motive behind closing the Folder View thread(s) was to put out a fire. IIRC the stated reason was that The Roon Team Hath Spoken.
In this case, it seems like the mods were actually trying to stop the flaming of the OP who was being critical, so I misunderstood that. There were definitely some uncivil comments on both sides of that debate.
Personally I’m really glad that the thread was closed.
Constructive criticism is great and very much needed. We know the Roon team listen, you might not get what YOU want but that’s life. Right from the off you knew that thread would descend into “Its all about what I want and what you should do, me, me, me, me, me, me, me”.
It certainly looked like the OP wanted to rouse people up and annoy them, the complete tone of his initial post was pointedly offensive.
Quite a few Roon subscribers seem to forget that the Roon team is pretty small and that major changes take a long time. Are they running the business, do they know what’s happening behind the scenes? Have they ever developed software of this complexity?
I’m paying for the software as it is NOW, not what I personally want it to be in the future. If it changes and I don’t like it or can’t adapt, I’ll take my money elsewhere.
James_I
(The truth is out there but not necessarily here)
12
Well, I feel like I’m not getting my point across. I realize freedom of speech philosophies differ across the world. However, this alone to me is not reason to shut down a thread:
Personal insults yes. But “me me me me” while potentially irritating, and easy to disagree with, can be responded to without shutting off the thread. In this case the mods have said that the thread was closed because some of the forum regulars were ganging up and getting insulting, and that to me is legitimate. But not the above - irritating but no need to shut it down. Ignore it if it irritates you.
And there were some very valid points made in that post. Not necessarily by the OP.
Thanks for the link. This doesn’t say, though, that feature requests need to be closed.
James_I
(The truth is out there but not necessarily here)
13
The price of Roon is outsized compared to most if not all media apps. It’s better, I love it, but when you charge as they do, you do create a certain set of expectations. You naturally have to expect that some new trial users will see the pricing then try the product and, without yet discovering its true power, be disappointed with some of what is on the surface, and then comment on that.
For example, a new user will start their library and go to play a favorite song and it won’t be there because Roon may not have identified it correctly. They won’t know how to find it and their natural reaction is to look for a structured file/folder view to see if it was indeed added to the library. But that view isn’t there. We’ve all learned to love or at least live with that point. I’m not trying to restart that debate (here) … . but it’s a natural thing to look for, and then comment upon. A trial user would be justified in making that comment about freeware or something quite cheap, so of course making that comment about a fairly expensive product is fair game. Roon has made the decision not to implement folder view, and that is naturally controversial, so the Roon team themselves have already decided to live with the controversy and the rhetoric it creates.
There is just no call to shut down those comments, nor to pile on and tell those users that they should go elseshere. Those comments to me were just as rude as anything the OP said.
But I don’t think that was done. The original post and thread is still there - with the points that the OP wanted to say. Yes, perhaps some of the replies could have pointed out threads in the Feature Request forum where his points were addressed, but frankly, from the tone of the OP, I doubt that that would have helped much.
So, in summary, I don’t think it is proven that the mods close threads because they are critical (of Roon).
1 Like
James_I
(The truth is out there but not necessarily here)
16
Well, this is not a court case and no one has any burden of proof. If nothing else, it may just be helpful to the mods to know that there are regular forum users that prefer as light a touch as possible when it comes to closing threads. Deleting bad posts, sure, but please think twice before just closing a thread.
Judging from this forum’s history, I get the feeling that the mods think more than twice before just closing a thread. My impression is that such decisions are not taken lightly. YMMV.
I didn’t see the thread’s decent into hating, but I knew it was coming. Evidenced by my (perhaps poorly worded; I should have added what I thought: “this is gonna get ugly”) 1st sentence in the first response of the thread.
…audio people (I wont even say ‘audiophiles’)… LOL! I’ve known you all (me included) well, since visiting Stereo Stores back in the mid 70’s. Hey, I was even a department (not store) manager at Crazy Eddie’s. Yes, I know us well… time, nor medium, has changed ya’ll a bit. Very big lol. (I do not include myself in that as I have mellowed with age. Two decades ago my opinionatedness would have gotten me a ban)
We do, you would be surprised just how much moderator discussion goes on quietly in the background.
You repeatedly cite the closure of the folder view feature request topic … I’m curious as to what other topics do you consider as being closed without due cause. Could you give us [mods] some specific examples?
(I do not include myself in that as I have mellowed with age. Two decades ago my opinionatedness would have gotten me a ban)