Improper track grouping for classical works

Occasionally I run into issues with classical works not grouping tracks properly - such as these two recently. Both are part of a single release with multiple symphonic works, each with multiple tracks for movements.

The first screenshot shows two different recordings of the same symphony, each in a different version - and each with different performers. The other is a single symphony in 5 movements by a single performer.

I’ve tried re-editing the tracks - changed settings back and forth between “prefer Roon/prefer file” - removing and re-importing - re-scan - etc. The result is unchanged. While editing the tracks, it looks like the info displayed in the library is that of Roon - even though “prefer file” is selected.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

Michael


Michael,

Does that include experimenting with tagging? Roon works best with accurately and precisely tagged imports.

This might seem trivial, but the work stems have to be exact, including case sensitive matching.

In your example, you have a mix of minor and Minor.

Such mistakes are not uncommon usually resulting from roon not being able to properly identify composition-related information from the tags and track titles.

Am I correct in my assumption that you are solely using tagged local files? If only one recording of a composition is originating from either a streaming service such as Oobuz or Tidal, or roon is relying on its own metadata sourced from TiVo, it might take over details from these sources regardless the user preferring data from local file tags.

If you use local tags and have set all recordings of a composition to ´multi-part compositions > prefer file info´ I recommend to doublecheck the local tags as well as the track titles:

%WORK% must be identical with all tracks belonging to one and the same composition and that one should ideally follow Tivo´s given syntax, like in Shostakovich´s case:
“Symphony No. 4 in C minor, Op. 43”

%PART% should always contain useful information and no 2 parts should ever be the same

If the composition name and the part are in the track title or filename, it should be consistent with all tracks of all recordings and not the same character should be used to separate work, movement number and movement name (which is the case here with the “-”).

I have a feeling in your case %WORK% and %PART% are either not consistent, or you have another recording of this symphony in only 3 tracks which is matching Shostakovich´s original movement nomenklatura so instead of

I - Allegretto - Presto
II - Moderato con moto
III - Largo - Allegro

roon is matching the three original movements falsely with the parts thereof, i.e. Ib and IIIa leaving two fractions of Movements I and III separated.

Apply correct %WORK% and %PART% tags and reimport that album again being set to “prefer local file tags for multi-part composition info”. It should work and look like this:

The Bruckner case is the other way round: All tracks of the 2 versions of the Symphony No. 8 seemingly bear the same %WORK% tag causing roon to think it is only one composition.

As the WAB catalogue for Bruckner does not differentiate versions of a composition, maybe you can apply a non-compliant %WORK% tag to one of the versions, like:

Symphony No. 8 in C minor, WAB 108 (edited by Haas)

which will cause roon to open a new, non-canonical composition in Bruckner´s composition list. If you later mark these 2 versions in Bruckner´s oeuvre list and merge them, the 2 recordings should appear as 2 separated ones.

Edit: Just noticing that this false merging originates from the Bruckner “The Romantic Masters” CD box and the false composition details are probably provided by TiVo, not your local tags.

There might be a workaround: Split one version of the Symphony No. 8 by using the “Fix Group tracking” apart and move it to a new album. Either the Inbal or the Barenboim recording should exist as a separated release and in this case the mixed composition should disappear.

BTW this Bruckner boxset is a nightmare regarding metadata. Would recommend to get rid of it or split it into single releases.

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Appreciate the input!

Part of the weird thing that caused me to post this here is that the info seen in the screenshots I posted comes from Roon - basically ignoring my selection of “prefer file”.

So when differences of “minor” and “Minor” are noted, that comes from Roon - the file info, name, metadata that I created before importing or with editing eliminates those inconsistencies - but Roon maintains them. A screenshot shows one of the example for the symphony version:

I’ve thought of breaking the large WB box into separate discs, but the inconsistency bothers me - and would also mean that even in a smaller album as in my other example, I’d have to break the album up - which seems unnecessary.

BTW - I have no experience with tags. I have thousands of releases that are locally filed with metadata and haven’t had to use tags before.

Thanks for the help -

You write you ignore the tagging of local files so most probably there is no %WORK% and %PART% tags attached to your files causing roon to use its flawed internal metadata if your files do not contain useful information on compositions. If you want ´Prefer file´ to change things you need to apply tags.

I recommend to use software like MP3tag, mark all die tracks belonging to one composition and then apply proper tags %WORK% and %PART% subsequently generating track titles from these.

Big boxsets causing a mess are always a good idea to split into several discs.

If your local metadata or roon´s internal sets (sourced from TiVo and Musicbrainz) deliver sufficient information, you usually do not have to do anything. This is only in case of contradictive data, my personal experience with big boxsets and re-releases from analogue era recordings is pretty mixed to say the least.

Thanks -

I realize I misspoke…

Although I don’t work with tags within Roon, I tag all my local files with Yate - which I believe is similar to MP3tag.

So in the track I posted a screenshot, the tag data in Yate is:

I downloaded MP3tag and the tag data appears as:

So I’m not sure what is missing in the tags in the local files that allows Roon to use it’s own info despite my selection of “prefer file”. Maybe I’m confused about %WORK% and %PART% in this context.

Grateful for the help!

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MP3tag shows that there is neither any %WORK% nor %PART% tag. They simply do not exist so roon cannot extract useful multi-part composition data from them.

It is a bit of work but you can add these tags to all the problematic tracks. In MP3tag there is a function to extract tags from filename. So if the filename is consisting of the track number + track title, you can tell MP3tag to generate the tags from it using a syntax such as:

%TRACK%. %WORK% - %PART%

if the file is called

  1. Symphony No. 8 in C Minor (1887) - I. Allegro moderato

You might have to manually add the WAB no. to the %WORK% tag but make sure that all tracks belonging to one composition have identical %WORK% tag and no other tracks bear the same one.

I see another tag here which might cause problems later with roon: The composer Bruckner is assigned as “ALBUM ARTIST” which might lead to confusion and the album not being listed under Bruckner´s ´composed by´ discography. I would change the album artist to various artists in this case.

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Appreciate the help -

Using MP3tag helps with the grouping of tracks for a work, but I’m still seeing some strangeness in what Roon displays.

For example, after correcting the tracks for one composition, Ronn is now displaying its own title of the work - which differs from the tags and file info - screenshots:


Even weirder, another composition has Roon showing completely incorrect “performed by” info from what is also tagged and in the file info - tracks 3 and 4 in screenshot:

I assume there are ways to correct this - but the big question is why Roon sometimes takes file info and metadata tags correctly, and in other cases does not - despite what is selected in my preferences and tag editor?

That is completely to be expected and a sign that the composition has been correctly identified. It should be possible, though, to set the priority for track title to local file tags manually.

I see the same error with the same boxset sourced from Qobuz. Seems to be a major flaw in metadata which TiVo or MusicBrainz are providing.

There are ways to correct this but it might require several steps:

  • editing tags of local files including all performer credits, main Artis per track, Work and PART tags
  • setting roon´s priority to prefer local tags for aforementioned credits
  • erasing wrong credits manually in roon after selecting just the affected tracks

It is a problem of the metadata sourced von Tivo and MusicBrainz. Even if you choose to prefer local file credits, it does not mean the internal metadata is completely disappearing. It is still there, as so are links to other albums bearing the same composition.

In rare cases of complete mismatch there is a possibility of unidentifying the album deliberately so roon cannot use internal metadata at all.

I have done the latter with 2 albums because one (Mahler 1 by RCO, Mariss Jansons) was matching with a completely wrong set of metadata (RSO Frankfurt conducted by Inbal) and the other one was refusing to assign correct composers:

Deleting the wrong credits did not help. But that is rare.

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Thanks, again -

I was able to fix the incorrect “performed by” by editing Credits in Roon - “prefer file” just doesn’t seem to work for me in these situations.

I understand Roon is pulling from metadata from other sources. It just seems that there should be some other way to circumvent these issues by having “prefer file” work the way it would seemingly be intended as the name describes.

Plus, it seems that different tag editors provide different access. I’ve used Yate for years - and although I was able to find a %WORK% field to add that tag, I couldn’t come across %PART% anywhere. And although MP3tag provided those two tags, they are not listed by default - and without help to know what and how to add them like you provided, they would remain obscure.

Perhaps Roon needs its own tag editor so all of this can be done internally since Roon knows exactly what it needs and is looking for.

Appreciate the help!

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Michael,

Does this help?

And possibly this as a wider summary of Yate<>Roon?

“Prefer file” does not bring roon to ignore all other sources except from the file tags but simply to prefer them. Usually credits are combined from all sources.

They are not listed by default if they were not part of the initial set of metadata being applied when ripping or come with FLAC/MP3 files you have downloaded. That is the case with many albums, and usually roon can get enough of data from the track titles to identify the composition and the parts thereof.

Problems occur particularly in cases the Opus/Catalogue number cannot be identified, or there is a situation with varying number of movements/tracks associated with that multi-part composition. Operas and oratorios are by far the worst examples.

It is roon´s philosophy not to touch the files. You could use the album or track editor in roon to edit the credits which in most of cases resolves the problem but it is a lot of fiddly work.

Speaking of which: I have just resolved the issue with the wrong set of metadata in roon for Mahler Symphony No. 1 by RCO conductor Marisa Jansons. The moment the album is identified wrong credits for orchestra and conductor are appearing and they would not disappearing when removing them. It was some detective work and a threefold procedure:

  • remove false credits for orchestra and conductor from all tracks in roon
  • set album artist preference to ´prefer file´
  • remove fake primary artists in the album editor

Pretty complicated but now it works! Maybe others might find this helpful and I guess you have a similar problem reporting that false credits do not disappear when setting credit preference to file tag.

Blockquote

That’s great, Mark - thanks!

I would like to keep my flow with Yate since I am familiar with it rather than changing to MP 3tag - so I appreciate the help pointing me in that direction.

Additionally I found a section in Yates HELP that provides downloads of files that add custom panels specific for Roon - adding in the WORK and PART fields, as well as several others:
Roon Mapping files

This has all been very helpful - thanks everyone!

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Great, Michael. Yes; well done. Please do ask if we can help you tie any more of this up. Good luck!

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