Jez, I’m not familiar with if the server did convert to FLAc, I doubt it but he … I’m not sure.
What I did to bypass everything in the chain I took a USB stick and put that in the logitech touch. On that USB stick were WAV and FLAC and I compared it like that.
True, With respect. I judge my hearing and the hearing of 3 other people more than a debate that is moving into a sort of discussion like bits are bits. or music in 24 bits is nonsense.
this is Believer vs nonbeliever and not going te be resolved.
I just wanted to share what I’m hearing and yep, feel free to disagree.
For me, I’m enjoying my music more with unpressed Flac 
For those who are sceptic and have doubt, give it a try. disconnect your brain and trust your ears.
I have, and it was blind testing … my experience suggested that on my system there is zero difference in audio quality.
I’m quite comfortable that we have different views … but still would suggest you perform a controlled blind test to remove any possibility of any unconscious expected bias.
Unless you know how to stop it, the Logitech Media Server converts WAV to FLAC. For sure. No doubt, By design. You wouldn’t be the first person to be misled.
Picking my brain here, could it be that I somehow avoided the media server ? I was using Ipeng but don’t think so, Ipeng was only a wrap around the server ?
I have music on CD that I know by heart like harvest from Neil Young after I ripped them, put them on my NAS and listened via the logitech I was extremely disappointed.
At one moment in a forum it was suggested to convert Flac to WAV and… yes I had my CD experience back.
Via USB direct on the logitech touch or via the NAS didn’t make a difference as long as it was WAV. Do you know ? Was the logitech media server streaming FLAC in a uncompressed format ? If so then we are back to the same point as what I’m now hearing again with Roon.
You are imagining what you are hearing in Roon. The Endpoint is getting the same exact PCM data in exactly the same time frame. Decompressing FLAC on the Roon Core takes very little time and hardly any resources. As someone pointed out, the files being smaller means the system could be doing even less with compressed FLAC than uncompressed FLAC or WAV.
The Logitech media server streams FLAC as FLAC and WAV as FLAC unless you make it do otherwise. Since you clearly do not know how to make it do otherwise it is pretty likely your LMS was always streaming FLAC whether the source file was WAV or FLAC.
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I think every audio forum on the inner-tubes has this same discussion: WAV vs. FLAC.
A true anecdote to illustrate just how far subjectivist thinking can go awry:
"WAV and FLAC are not the same. Here’s an analogy. Take a sheet of paper. Now, crumple that paper up into a ball. That’s compression. Now, un-crumple that same sheet of paper and smooth it back out. All of the paper is still there and you have your sheet of paper back. But, is it really the same as before? "
But we are not even comparing FLAC to WAV. We are comparing uncompressed PCM to uncompressed PCM and in both cases they are digitally identical as they are sent to the Roon Endpoint.
Why does FLAC encoding even offer different compression levels as an option if its all the same anyway? Asking for a friend 
For the same reason RAR and ZIP compression do. Compression is computationally intensive and higher compression takes longer. Some are happy to wait in order to achieve the smallest file size whilst others don’t want to wait as long and are happy to settle for a larger file that takes proportionally a lot less time to produce.
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Something that was perhaps relevant in the 1990‘s.
Here is a comparison of FLAC encoding/decoding/filesizes taken from the FLAC wiki. Notice how a) decoding is about constant - in fact it is quicker to decode level -8 -A tukey than level -5, b) you don’t save that much (in today’s terms) filesize by going for higher compression levels, c) higher compression levels take massively longer to compute. FLAC was designed to be computationally trivial to decode, and thus suitable for low powered devices. Although the saving in filesize is perhaps not so important in these days of cheap storage, it still offers a worthwhile saving in network traffic. Level -5 is about the sweet spot if you have a lot of ripping to do.
FLAC’s initial release 20 July 2001; 18 years ago
I once took acid, many years ago now, and had the odd experience of hearing the clouds as they moved through the sky - a low drone that wouldn’t be out of place in many a contemporary ambient music album. There’s no doubt I could hear them as they drifted by (subjectively true), and it was a truly awesome experience, but there’s also no doubt that they weren’t the source of that eerie sound (objectively true) - synaesthesia is a well-documented consequence of taking hallucinogenic drugs. I had the experience, but that doesn’t mean there’s a general truth at work here - clouds don’t work like that - but flood a human brain with LSD and it will seem as though they do.
By the same token I’m sure you can hear a difference between compressed and uncompressed FLAC (subjectively true) but, as @Speed_Racer has pointed out “the Endpoint receives the exact same PCM regardless of format or compression level.” As there’s no objective model or theory that can account for any perceived differences the only logical conclusion is that the source of your experience is a form of expectation bias (objectively true).
As numerous people have pointed out, there’s nothing wrong with your approach - stick with it if you’re sure it works - but I think Occam’s razor would suggest that expectation bias is a much likelier explanation of any differences you perceive.
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David,
Let’s agree that we disagree
Perhaps you didn’t have the time to read my replies but I already wrote back that the end point is receiving the same info.
My focus is not on the endpoint or the transport but what’s happening in Roon software?
You are also by-passing that there are 3 other individuals that all heard the difference.
We did blind switching between between files formats and no… I did not pay them off
Therefore I reached out to to the roon community to share findings while you’re argument is that all 4 of us heard it wrong and are on Acid?
What I always find interesting is that audio people can be so convinced about their own truth that one like now ends up in true vs false.
I’m known for my strong statements but can accept when being wrong when right arguments are given. Hence, If the cost for a experimenting is acceptable I even invest in gear to proof my own wrong.
I’m so happy that I’m open for other opinions for that helped me a make me a richer person and at the same time I enjoy my music even more as I did before.
Agreed, I’m happy to disagree.
That said, you did say in an earlier post that you didn’t blind test -
“No blind testing , you are correct I wasn’t 100% objective.”
so I’m still inclined to suspect expectation bias as a more likely culprit. As for your three companions: it’s quite possible they were picking up clues from you regarding which one should sound best, even though they probably had no idea they were doing so (see Clever Hans for a comparable example).
Again, I’m not doubting your experience, just your conclusion that this must be something to do with Roon rather than something to do with psychology.
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David, Point taken.
Please look when I created this topic and compare that with current date…
There’s some time in-between and you’re correct I started this by my own and therefore at that time no blind testing and not 100% objective.
As a next step I invited some friends and did blind testing. Why ? To proof I was wrong !
Who knows, Perhaps I was on Acid, maybe I’m against Roon, Perhaps I hate Flac ?
Always judge your now finding and get a second opinion.
Sadly enough everyone agreed with me, they heard a difference
What i found constructive was the feedback from Jez. Pointing out that the logitech server software used flac. That makes my brain going to work. what did I miss ? Did I made an error ?
With all respect ,just saying that it can’t be Roon because that’s your opinion doesn’t add any value.
I’ve seen solid Tech companies go under for they were not open for constructive market feedback.
In the mean time I’m listening to my music via Roon with uncompressed flac and enjoying it
These days we have too much of everyone convinced that all opinions are of equal weight, science and engineering be damned. This discussion makes me think of Russell’s Teapot
'Russell’s teapot" is an analogy formulated by the philosopher Bertrand Russell to illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making unfalsifiable claims, rather than shifting the burden of disproof to others.
It seems to me that when people make implausible arguments, particularly where science and engineering principles are well established, the burden is on those people to provide rigorous evidence. As I’ve said before, here and elsewhere, if one enjoys something, even if a result of imagination or perception, then that’s great and they should enjoy it all they want. It doesn’t make it an “equal fact”. In fact, use of “false equivalencies” is one of the greatest problems facing society today. (And I’m not talking about audio stuff here…audio is a hobby and fun, at least for most people).
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I’m not saying it can’t be Roon, what I’m saying is that there are no logical or scientific explanations as to how it could be, to which I added two further observations:
- human perception is deeply fallible.
- it’s eminently possible that you influenced your fellow listeners, albeit unwittingly.
As @garym pointed out, all opinions do not have equal weight, and in this instance I think logic clearly trumps perception. Again, I’m happy for you to disagree.
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