Latest Roon build | Random small popping sounds moving DSP volume, and when selecting play & pause functions

Support
23

@support, @noris, some assistance would be appreciated.
Initial complaints made some months ago now, with essentially zero support.

Observation is:
Three different PC’s tested.
Pi4(Ropieee), NUC i5 S4(Rock, USB direct to DAC), i7 Windows PC(Bridge connect to Rock).
No different, issue observed on all platforms and PC’s.

Observation
Pops on pause, track skip, clicking/popping on volume slider… Bloody annoying.
Running an active system, pops can get quite loud @ near -10db approaching 0db. Looking for a software fix.

Currently Testing Now
Windows installed with Roon software acting as server/bridge > USB connection to dac

24

Never get pops on any of my zones with DSP, I don’t use DSP volume though. Convolution filter and Volume levelling used on my main Naim Uniti Atom. Nor had it on any of my pis when using convolution for headphone listening.

25

That’s great. Well done.

26

Must be DAC specific I guess.

1 Like
27

After further testing, I can confirm, pops occur with the following setups.
This mirrors Marin’s advice.

Tested:

  • Windows 11 running asio drivers for DAC
  • Rock > USB DAC
  • Pi4 Ropieee > USB DAC
  • Pi4 Ubuntu/Bridge > USB DAC

I don’t have this issue using other music software?
Would be great if service could assist, its been some months since this was reported.

28

The difference here, is I run an active system.
Roon is handling streaming, convolution crossovers, DSP, and volume control.

System gain structure is completely different to a standard Hifi setup, and with Roon handling DSP volume its easy to hear pops, etc.

29

Confirming for anyone else that might have this issue.
After installing CamillaDSP and LMS I don’t get any pops, when selecting play, stop, pause, or skip.

Therefore the issue appears to be isolated to Roon.

1 Like
30

Hi @danny, @connor, @benjamin, I hope you are all well.

Could I please have some engagement from the support team (I have contacted multiple team members with no assistance forthcoming), to explain whether my playback issue can be improved, or if indeed the issue cannot be overcome with current RAAT design/capability.

It has been quite frustrating to receive no engagement on the issue, and I have noticed more users than me experiencing similar issues.

The pops (as defined in the thread) are quite loud (especially when listening to tracks at volume) and really detract from my listening experience using Roon, which is otherwise excellent. Its got to the point where I am listening more using LMS/CamillaDSP, as this platform is trouble “pop” free.

As a work around, I am having to ramp volume down, before selecting each/any commands. Surely this can’t be my only solution long term.

As you can see from the thread, I have completed extensive trouble shooting, running different core OS solutions, removing DSP volume, endpoints, drivers (UAC2 compliant & Asio). Unfortunately the issue is always present, and random, depending on on the song, and where in the song these commands are executed.

With the Roon software supporting convolution, multichannel USB signal routing, etc, I would in turn assume Roon would provide some level of assistance/support for issues reported using these functions.

Thanks in advance for your time.

1 Like
31

Monitoring the following changes, to see if they have any impact.

I have installed a Netgear GS108, and moved across the wired Endpoint, and Rock Server. Internet supplied via a wired connection to Orbi.

Just for fun, I am trialling different buffer and latency settings in the Motu device interface. As my system music playback was perfect once playing (I.e. only observed on track skip, pause commands) I suspect changing buffers and latency wont help (and will likely introduce other issues)…

EDIT:
Just noting I stream Qobuz, and play local files. So no Tidal rendering issues.

EDIT 18.12.22: These changes did nothing to improve the issue.

35

Latest Observations.

Observations are based on the following setups.

Setup1: Roon server installed on Win11, i7 9700T HP G5 PC, running as Roon server and endpoint.

Setup2: Roon Rock feeding, using both Win11, Ropieee, and Pi4 Ubuntu/Bridge endpoint(s)

Setup3: Roon Rock, running as server and endpoint to USB DAC

Observations:

  • Normal in song playback is perfect on all setups.
  • Issues are only observed on execution of track transition commands. Track skips, pause, sometimes play (if a track is already playing), and volume ramping from slider.
    • Roon pops are noticeable more present/louder for songs which have low bass energy.
      • I listen to mostly electronic music and its observed regularly
      • If I play back tracks without significant bass, the pop either doesn’t occur, or is not as loud.
    • Pops are observed on playback from local content or Streaming Qobuz
    • I don’t use Tidal, so this is not a Tidal rendering issue
  • I get pffft/small popping noise using the visual iPhone slider, regardless of the core & OS, or endpoint OS. However, if I use the iPhone physical volume buttons, or ramp very slowly no noise is audible.
  • My Motu MK5 UL running LMS on Win11, Pi4/Ubuntu/Squeezelite/CamillaDSP is completely pop free on transition commands, track skip, play, pause. So my hardware works perfectly
    • Motu MK5 UL is class compliant UA2 device
  • I am now stumped; All testing, and LMS performance with my hardware is pointing to a compatibility issue between OS/Hardware/Roon, and how the software & RAAT handles transitions.
    • A gentlemen earlier in the thread pointed to RAAT programming as a potential cause. Could Roon support elaborate on this observation? Would RAAT/player fade in/fade improve this issue?
    • My JBL M2’s require DSP for crossover, as such I can’t remove DSP functions.
    • I tested without Roon DSP volume in signal, and there was no improvement.

I am now testing a new setup.

Setup4: Ubuntu 22.04.1 LTS running Roon Server, operating as server and endpoint to my Motu USB DAC. So far tracks skips, pause, and volume ramping are not causing ‘any’ pops?! Running on the same NUC hardware as my previous Rock setup. FYI, I tired re-installing a fresh Rock install from USB, but the installation manager repeatedly provided partition error messages @ install. I had formatted the drive… but no luck.

I need to monitor Ubuntu>DAC behaviour.

EDIT: I still get pops on bass heavy music, executing transition commands.
See post below.

36

Very interesting, indeed!
Just to verify, you did test with songs “known” for their popping tendency?

37

Hi @Marin_Weigel…

I thought things were good for a while, I didn’t notice ‘pops’.
But I have been listening for the last few hours now…

Its very clear in my system that the pops occur on bass heavy music, and when executing transition commands. Ubuntu displays the same issue, BUT, subjectively it happens far less then when I connected directly to Rock - as an example.

This issue really needs Roon’s involvement now.
I have exhausted every OS & endpoint setup I have available to me, and don’t have access to expensive Roon certified endpoint/streamers like the Exasound s88.

Additionally operating my DAC (With Roon) as class complaint, or using its native ASIO makes no difference, so this doesn’t appear to be a USB device compatibility issue.

Additionally, once I started hearing the transition pops on bass heavy music, I tried rebooting the server to see if this helped (I.e. some sort of memory/software issue, etc) but this action did nothing.

The fact that LMS/CamillaDSP doesn’t have this issue, must raise some important questions or clues?

38

ATM, I’m testing to see what happens if I execute the Crossover as IIR, using Roon’s procedural engine.

39

That ecosystem’s code is using zero crossing detection when executing said commands, so transitions are graceful - that’s all there’s to it.

1 Like
40

V’s, how is Roon doing it?

41

Roon just instantly executes the commands whenever registered, so there are more or less stark jumps from one sample to the next.
That elegantly explains, that sometimes you don’t even hear any artifact, because the jump occurs closer to or exactly at a zero crossing point in the signal.

1 Like
42

@jamie
@noris

Noris, could you please chime in, I notice Jamie did a hand ball to you…
Regards
Steve

43

Hi @grizaudio,

Thank you for the report here and for your patience. I checked with the team and we agree that there is some room for improvement in this area, this volume transition should ideally be smoother.

We’ve put in a ticket regarding this behavior and we hope to make some improvements in Roon in the future, though I am unable to specify when exactly this work will be completed.

Thanks again for bringing this to our attention!

1 Like
45

@noris

I appreciate you acknowledging the issues with volume ramping. Thanks, its great to know there is a ticket in the system, which someday might be addressed.

But… surely this can’t be your response to what is a very detailed thread, outlining audible pops on execution of transition commands, and volume sliding. I have gone to incredible lengths to diagnose and rule out all possible OS or hardware causation.

I have installed every OS I can get my hands on, and even run third party software ruling out hardware incompatibilities or issues.

I think we both know the transition observation extends beyond volume ramping.

Are you able to provide any comment about whether Roon can improve track transition, particularly relating to track skip and pause command execution. Is there anything you would recommend I try to address things from my end, that hasn’t already been done?

46

@Marin_Weigel

Just for fun I installed CamilaDSP on my Roon endpoint, and used Loopback to execute my JBL crossovers.

I then selected the loopback audio device in Roon (I made sure no DSP was active at all) and hit play… Roon still produces random pop’s on track transition. This essentially proves the transition noise is due to Roon, and also excludes DSP as a possible cause.

Its worth noting, the transition pop is particularly noticeable when transition commands are executed during heavy bass.

So just to confirm; The above test ran an identical Pi4 endpoint, the same Ubuntu 22.0 LTS OS and CamilaDSP instance, as I have used for my LMS transition test which passes with zero transition pops.

I think this observation essentially confirms your advice, and observation.