Currently I have plural LMS servers running - without any problems. No squeezebox device becomes “confused”. I am strongly interested to have ROON additionally available - i.e. without need to turn off all my LMS servers. I think that this should be technically possible and hope that ROON will evolve in this direction.
You are correct that it’s technically possible.
The way that LMS implements those features is by having each LMS track the other LMS’s, and gossip information about the endpoints on the network. This is a a fairly complex piece LMS<->LMS communication. We could emulate it, but it’s a lot of work, and it’s not clear that our efforts would have enough impact for enough people to justify the effort.
So we drew a line: Roon talks to Squeezebox endpoints, but does not communicate or collaborate with other LMS servers. Features of LMS that rely on server<->server communication, thus, don’t work with Roon.
We have a pretty solid history of listening to user feedback and allowing it to impact and drive our priorities. This whole Squeezebox project came about as a result of this thread. So, as usual, if we get enough feedback on this point, we will strongly consider doing the work.
As a Squeezebox user dating back to the original Squeezebox I’m curious as to why you’d need multiple instances of LMS running in addition to Roon. When I had two instances running on the network it was pretty much a testing and a stable build. Outside of that there was possibly the issue of two different libraries for different users?
I second the desirability to allow LMS to run in parallel with Roon. The use case is that a local LMS server (in my case NAS based) is needed in order to access the BBC digital radio services at higher bit rates on my Squeezebox Touch and it would be good to be able to then switch over to using Roon for non-radio services.
Having said that, my primary endpoints will be Meridian, it is just that the Squeezebox Touches are very useful for secondary zones, e.g. kitchen, office etc.
A first LMS uses MusicIP with Spicefly SugarCube Plugin and a second LMS uses M. Herger´s Smart Mix Plugin. These LMSs run unter Windows. Recently I added a further LMS with the Shairtunes Plugin and Shairport for streaming via Airplay to Squeezebox devices. This LMS runs under Linux (Max2Play on Odroid XU4). Further there is one LMS for experimenting.
do you find much difference between the MusicIP powered LMS and Smart Mix? i love what Michael has done with Smart Mix, however it doesn’t work with Tidal…and MusicIP no longer exists.
Roon Radio is similar in concept to both. curious if you’ve a preference.
[quote=“woodford, post:33, topic:5865”]
curious if you’ve a preference.
[/quote]i used both for a long time, eventually abandoning musicip/spiceflly when gracenote bought the remnants of musicip and took the musicdns servers offline - a move that made analyzing of new music impractical because genpuid refuses to work without access to musicdns.
Using SmartMix I was happy to abandon musicip albeit I still feel musicip’s playlist engine generated perpetual playlists closer to the seed than echonest does. The other downside of echonest is they only accept 100k entries so if you’re a large library you’re missing a big chunk.
For classical music I prefer MusicIP with Spicefly SugarCube, for other kinds of music both are fine. MusicIP (at least the Windows version) needs no internet based services but only a powerful computer, so that the switching off of the MusicIP server by Gracenote makes no problems.
What are the possible consequences of this gossiping about the endpoints not taking place?
I am moderately interesting in running LMS and Roon in parallel for now, though it’s probably not a deal breaker. It’s not clear to me yet exactly how much impact it could have.
I’m in the habit of listening to Internet radio via my LMS rather than My Squeezwbox.com. I don’t remember the exact reason, maybe just because I have to drill down an extra menue on SB to get there. I haven’t noticed any instance of a higher bit rate being available via LMS but that would be a factor for me as well.
I have yet to try Roon SB integration. I have one each of “classic”, Duet and Touch. Currently they are streaming WKCR’s annual Bach Festival via LMS nearly 24/7 and doing alarm clock duty in that capacity. I don’t want to rock that boat but when that ends, as does 2015, I plan to deploy SB integration. Before I do that, though, I want to get EDO working on the Touch.
There’s also the issue of the effort I’ve put into wrestling with poor or inconsistent databases, particularly with classical music, to create LMS-friendly directory structures and tags. I’m not quite ready to let that go yet. I want a solid Roon infrastructure in place first.
What I had expected to happen when you rolled out SB integration was under “music source” in addition to My Squeezebbox and my LMS, Roon would appear, with the ability to switch back and forth as before. But I was unaware of the expectation of inter-LMS communication happening.
I think people who’ve tried out configurations like that might do a better job at explaining than I will. I understand the fundamentals, and the technical limitations but I’ve never used a multi-LMS configuration myself, so I don’t have a good feel for how the flow worked in that world.
Squeezebox architecture is heavily dependent on LMS. Seemingly basic things like navigating menus on the VFD devices, is completely driven by the server. Literally, the server receives raw IR commands from the remote + then sends pixels back to the screen to display the menu.
So, say, you use the IR remote on the classic to point the classic to a different server. What you’re really doing is browsing a menu system that lives inside of LMS, displaying LMS’s list of other servers, and choosing one, which causes LMS to send a command to the classic with the IP address of the alternate LMS server that it should connect to. Soon after, the classic says “goodbye” to the old server and “hello” to the new one.
In Roon, we don’t render a menu system on the older devices because it would require us to replicate the graphics and font rendering system embedded within LMS from scratch. So for one, there is no way to navigate a menu and make the switch. We also don’t track other servers on the network. So we’re missing the building blocks that we would need to make that feature work.
If this sounds somewhat messy, it’s because it is. The Squeezebox ecosystem wasn’t designed with a clean interoperability boundary between the endpoints and software that wants to stream to them. The endpoints + server co-evolved together, over 10+ years, and are highly interdependent. Our efforts to support them more closely resemble reverse engineering and emulation than implementing a documented audio streaming protocol.
It may be that others could answer my question more thoroughly but you have done so more than thoroughly enough. It also explains some mysterious SB behaviors I hadn’t previously understood.
To me and maybe a few others it would be ideal if you supported the entire SB architecture including graphics, remote protocols, etc. but I understand you have a lot of other priorities that people are waiting for. I look forward to using the SB functionality you have now.
I recycled more digital media players than I can count, mostly video but including one TB Audiotron that died. Nice to see a potential new life for the SB hardware. For something that’s no longer in production you’ve put a lot more into supporting it than most companies would.
I think the more pertinent question is:
Who will really need to run an LMS in parallel once Internet radio is implemented on Roon?
No one really. And for myself who never touches internet radio, I’m golden now without a need for anything else.
I need internet radio sadly. but love Roon.
The SB classic can indeed not be connected with ROON when there is a running LMS in the network.
However, I could connect a SB Touch and a SB Radio with ROON using the respective local UI, although plural LMSs were running.
Concerning SB Transporter I am uncertain. It can be connected with ROON using the local UI with simultaneously running LMSs, but on first try the streaming from ROON to the Transporter didn´t work.
My favorite solution to use the Squeezebox devices for streaming from ROON would be Airplay via Shairtunes Plugin and Shairport, as far as only CD quality is available or needed, as already mentioned above. For HighRes I can use a MacBookPro with the Meridian Explorer2 USB DAC at the only listening place where HighRes perhaps makes sense.This listing place is the place where the Transporter is located as well, so that I will not investigate the above Transporter issue further.
The streaming to Squeezebox devices from ROON via Airplay with Shairtunes and Shairport needs still further investigation. It works but I can not yet comment of the stability since my additional LINUX device for the LMS with Shairtunes Plugin and Shairport has stopped operating due to hardware problems. I will report as soon as this device is operative again and I did some further testing.
PS. It seams, that all Squeezebox devices (in any case Touch and Radio, but apparently also Classic and Transporter) can be disconnected from LMS and connected with RoonServer via the respective local UI. The problem is to connect it back to LMS. This works with Touch and Radio, but apparently not with Classic, since server side functionality would be needed. This might also apply to Transporter.
My kids use their mobiles to use control the Squeezeboxes in our house, they also prefer Spotify’s library to Tidal.
I can now report that the streaming to Squeezebox devices from ROON via Airplay with Shairtunes works in principle but apparently only with mediocre stability.
I use the Max2Play Linux distribution (see www.max2play.com) running on an ODROID XU4, with Logitech Media Server (LMS) Version 7.9.0 and the Shairtunes2 Plugin (not Shairport), which both can installed from the UI of Max2Play.
The stability is only mediocre and presumably not sufficient for all use scenarios since I notice occasional interruptions of the music stream, which however may depend on the kind of squeezebox device and the kind of network connection. I think it its fine at least for occasional use and worth a try. Max2Play is to be recommended anyway for hosting LMS.
my daughter prefers Tidal simply for Taylor; iPhone app is probably the only thing keeping me from making the switch to roon full time, although i will miss some internet radio (minnesota pulic radio [MPR.org] in particular.)
I am interested in either full feature for feature support for Squeezebox as alternative LMS, or else ability to switch between easily. Currently Roon is not working for me in terms of Squeezebox functionality, especially ability to play Internet radio synced in my choice of locations. I intend to turn off squeezebox support soon and revert to LMS. However, since either of these requests–full LMS support or seamless switching via “switch libraries”–turns out to be complex, I would far rather you devote your efforts to other things, such as Roon for Linux destop, Roon endpoints for RPi and Roon server for NAS. Of those my first choice would be Roon endpoints for RPi: Download an image, burn it onto a card, optionally plug in a DAC and you are ready to go. One user’s opinions.
(I have not tried switching to “My Squeezebox.com” because so far I don’t see it as an option).