# MQA disappointing **URL:** \ **Category:** MQA\ **Created:** [May 31, 2018, 9:55pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057 "2018-05-31T21:55:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 184
**Author:** ![garye](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/garye/32/84909_2.png) [@garye](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/garye)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 6:45pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3868 "2021-03-18T18:45:39Z")
I’m talking about credibility. ---
**Author:** ![Wim\_Hulpia](https://community.roonlabs.com/letter_avatar/wim_hulpia/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@Wim\_Hulpia](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Wim_Hulpia)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 6:49pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3869 "2021-03-18T18:49:35Z")
> [@garye](#): > > I’m thinking of is that you have used a graph as a fact without researching it Untrue. I read the comments that mansr put about this graph + another one “mikas” confirmed those. They were proven wrong later in that thread. And I admitted I didn’t read that thread till the end. Now back to the 16/44 =\> 24/88 mystery. Which you can see in the image above posted by Jim\_F 16/44 becomes 24/88 ---
**Author:** ![john](https://community.roonlabs.com/letter_avatar/john/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@john](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/john)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 8:46pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3871 "2021-03-18T20:46:35Z")
Hello @Wim_Hulpia, I remember this was brought up in a separate thread and I must have not followed up on it, my apologies. During playback of 16/44.1 MQA content with the MQA Core Decoder enabled: A. The audio is passed through the MQA authenticator to confirm the integrity of the stream and to display the provenance information to the listener. B. The audio is upsampled to its 2x rate (88.2 kHz in this case) by the Core Decoder using a filter that is complementary to the deblurring that was applied by the MQA encoder, completing the process. C. During upsampling the wordwidth is naturally increased so the signal is redithered to 24-bit to preserve the resolution for downstream devices. -John ---
**Author:** ![ricgf](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/ricgf/32/123112_2.png) [@ricgf](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/ricgf)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 9:27pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3872 "2021-03-18T21:27:33Z")
> [@john](#): > > B. The audio is upsampled to its 2x rate (88.2 kHz in this case) by the Core Decoder using a filter that is complementary to the deblurring that was applied by the MQA encoder, completing the process. And why apply that filter, pray tell? ---
**Author:** ![john](https://community.roonlabs.com/letter_avatar/john/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@john](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/john)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 9:56pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3874 "2021-03-18T21:56:20Z")
Hello @ricgf, More information on the rationale and implementation of the MQA Encoder’s “deblurring” process can be found here: [https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/mqa-time-domain-accuracy-digital-audio-quality](https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/mqa-time-domain-accuracy-digital-audio-quality) and here: > **[MQA: Questions and Answers Temporal Blur In Sampled Systems](https://www.stereophile.com/content/mqa-questions-and-answers-temporal-blur-sampled-systems)** > > Temporal Blur In Sampled Systems If we look back at the roots of sampled coding systems we encounter Shannon's elegant reconstruction theorem and Nyquist's theorem on channel capacity.\[23\]\[24\] A sampled signal can be unambiguously reconstructed if it... -John ---
**Author:** ![Neil\_Russell](https://community.roonlabs.com/letter_avatar/neil_russell/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@Neil\_Russell](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Neil_Russell)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 8:50am UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3875 "2021-03-19T08:50:17Z")
I have no idea how to do it, but I have read many times of people using VPN accounts to set up Qobuz accounts if they live in countries where Qobuz isn’t available. Maybe it might be worth while for you to explore that option. ---
**Author:** ![Xekomi](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/xekomi/32/103918_2.png) [@Xekomi](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Xekomi)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 9:56am UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3876 "2021-03-19T09:56:02Z")
And [a full video explanation is to be found here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7G7xOG2Ag). ---
**Author:** ![ElTel](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/eltel/32/126676_2.png) [@ElTel](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/ElTel)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 10:28am UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3877 "2021-03-19T10:28:54Z")
Unfortunately, you also need a credit card for the country you wish to subscribe through. It does look like Qobuz are in trials here in Oz. stereo.net.au ran an article saying that the AU store is looking at a possible mid-April launch. Here’s hoping that applies to streaming and not just downloads. ---
**Author:** ![ffk](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/ffk/32/127253_2.png) [@ffk](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/ffk)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 11:03am UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3878 "2021-03-19T11:03:23Z")
> [@ElTel](#): > > Unfortunately, you also need a credit card for the country you wish to subscribe through. tell 'em it’s a gift! ---
**Author:** ![Neil\_Russell](https://community.roonlabs.com/letter_avatar/neil_russell/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@Neil\_Russell](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Neil_Russell)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 12:05pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3879 "2021-03-19T12:05:55Z")
Well, I hope you get to subscribe to them soon. I love Qobuz. ---
**Author:** ![Wim\_Hulpia](https://community.roonlabs.com/letter_avatar/wim_hulpia/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@Wim\_Hulpia](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Wim_Hulpia)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 12:38pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3880 "2021-03-19T12:38:31Z")
> [@john](#): > > More information on the rationale and implementation of the MQA Encoder’s “deblurring” process can be found here: Removing of the “temporal blur” is just because of the use of a minimum phase filter. But it has a negative impact as well that is not to be underestimated : > [@](#): > > "This is caused by the **minimal phase** behavior of the filter. Although the resolution of the picture is not high enough to see, the phase shift starts already from the lowest frequency and increases more as the frequency goes up (logarithmic). > > So the absence of the pre-echo comes at the cost of an increasing phase shift across the entire frequency range. **People may argue that the shift is only small, and this may be good enough for normal audio applications, but for high-end it seems a serious issue.** For one the human brain uses phase information of frequencies up to 3kHz for spacial localization. The inner ear itself has an amplification around 3kHz, which makes the ear most sensitive in the 2 to 5 kHz range (for human speech). And the most important one, instruments and voices are not just limited to a single frequency, they operate on a range. **For instance drums even operate on the entire range from low to high. Every frequency component of the sound will get a different shift in time with this filter, it is like smearing the sound over the frequency range, with lows first and highs last. This might also explain why the lows are more pronounced.** > > On the HitchHikers forum it is mentioned countless times that there is (must be?) a **special sauce** in the Meridian filter. However, from this analysis there is no indication that this is the case. The old linear filter is just an equiripple lowpass filter, and the new apodizing filter is a minimal phase version of this linear filter. With a bit of Googling you can find a mathlab script to convert a linear filter into a minimal phase filter." Source : > **[Technical analysis of the Meridian Apodizing filter](https://mrapodizer.wordpress.com/2011/08/16/technical-analysis-of-the-meridian-apodizing-filter/)** > > Following the unsatisfactory experience with the apodizing filter I decided to try to create my own filter that would have the advantages of the apodizing filter without the disadvantages. The firs… I still don’t have an explanation why there is a 2 step up sampling - from 44.1 to 88.2 and - from 88.2 to 352.8 (or whatever maximum the dac is capable of) While this can be done in one step with regular pcm. I just press play on a 16/44.1 PCM and my dac up samples it - from 16/44.1 to to 32/705.6 I don’t need a 24/88.2 step in between and the result sounds way better that way; because I also don’t use a minimizing filter that actually blurs i.s.o. deblurs. (In the article above the author shows there’s no proof of deblurring, on the contrary) ---
**Author:** ![robbi\_burdeck](https://community.roonlabs.com/letter_avatar/robbi_burdeck/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@robbi\_burdeck](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/robbi_burdeck)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 1:00pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3881 "2021-03-19T13:00:00Z")
The apodizing filter from 2011 that you are referencing above is not used in MQA. The MQA filters (splines) are described here: > **[AES E-Library » A Hierarchical Approach for Audio Capture, Archive, and...](https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=20456)** ---
**Author:** ![Wim\_Hulpia](https://community.roonlabs.com/letter_avatar/wim_hulpia/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@Wim\_Hulpia](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Wim_Hulpia)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 1:02pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3882 "2021-03-19T13:02:36Z")
MQA uses minimizing filters, so the same negative aspects of an apodizing filter are also there. I highlighted some… the more bassy sound f.i. that was not there during recording and the blurring i.s.o. deblurring by the variable time shifts. ---
**Author:** ![dabassgoesboomboom](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/dabassgoesboomboom/32/131673_2.png) [@dabassgoesboomboom](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/dabassgoesboomboom)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 3:29pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3883 "2021-03-19T15:29:48Z")
> [@Xekomi](#): > > And [a full video explanation is to be found here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7G7xOG2Ag). Hilarious 😆 @Xekomi are you related to @davidh ? [https://community.roonlabs.com/t/roon-1-8-sound-quality-change/141309/681?u=dabassgoesboomboom](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/roon-1-8-sound-quality-change/141309/681) ---
**Author:** ![grizaudio](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/grizaudio/32/206242_2.png) [@grizaudio](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/grizaudio)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2021, 5:57am UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3884 "2021-03-20T05:57:21Z")
Lots of technical chat, but what if we do some listening? Here is a fantastic album, which version do to you prefer? MQA Master, 48khz 24bit, MQA 96khz [https://tidal.com/browse/album/152670639](https://tidal.com/browse/album/152670639) Redbook, 44.1khz 16bit, [https://tidal.com/browse/album/152670570](https://tidal.com/browse/album/152670570) ---
**Author:** ![Wim\_Hulpia](https://community.roonlabs.com/letter_avatar/wim_hulpia/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@Wim\_Hulpia](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Wim_Hulpia)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2021, 10:11am UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3885 "2021-03-20T10:11:03Z")
Hi grizaudio, I took first track and added the 24/96 PCM from Qobuz in the comparison (which is the real “master” the mqa was created from). The 16/44.1 is also very likely created (down sampled) from this 24/96 PCM. The identical track lengths seem to confirm this. Results : ![image](https://roon-community-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/original/3X/c/4/c47cb156c1fc340eb3c7fee580f5519d995771da.png) - Between 16/44.1 and 24/96 I could barely hear a difference. Crisp, clean, natural. The 24/96 slightly more natural. - The MQA sounds unnatural, damped. It sounds wrong. The sound of the drums made me actually think of this: ![image](https://roon-community-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/original/3X/3/4/34e5141ac57f8a288dffdbb851e30b5e707e3d77.jpeg) (clearly audible at 1:02) ---
**Author:** ![Wim\_Hulpia](https://community.roonlabs.com/letter_avatar/wim_hulpia/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@Wim\_Hulpia](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Wim_Hulpia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 8:56pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3886 "2021-03-23T20:56:23Z")
Here’s a nice article, showing how mqa was promoted in 2016. By comparing a 24/96MQA with a 16/44 … CD. This is how the marketing works. They played an MQA that’s 2.5x bigger in size. Nice article I recommend anyone to read. [https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/opinion/954-myriad-questions-about-mqa?fbclid=IwAR09m9qbLpn5jBrw0H1gY\_Bo6nkCQ-HxxUDswnvnuBxtTroshtMwTGvweTM](https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/opinion/954-myriad-questions-about-mqa?fbclid=IwAR09m9qbLpn5jBrw0H1gY_Bo6nkCQ-HxxUDswnvnuBxtTroshtMwTGvweTM) I posted this in another thread, but the mqa fanboys couldn’t resist cluttering the thread and attacking me, while I’m not even the author of that article. Stay polite please. ---
**Author:** ![garye](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/garye/32/84909_2.png) [@garye](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/garye)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2021, 9:12pm UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3887 "2021-03-23T21:12:46Z")
![image](https://roon-community-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/original/3X/5/8/581c2fc22babd0705fee7e2af1a30b72471396a2.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Wim\_Hulpia](https://community.roonlabs.com/letter_avatar/wim_hulpia/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@Wim\_Hulpia](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/Wim_Hulpia)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 12:06am UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3888 "2021-03-24T00:06:04Z")
![image](https://roon-community-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/original/3X/5/2/5237c736f1ef2ca34b45a587645db91a661b6f8c.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![ElTel](https://community.roonlabs.com/user_avatar/community.roonlabs.com/eltel/32/126676_2.png) [@ElTel](https://community.roonlabs.com/u/ElTel)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 1:04am UTC](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057/3889 "2021-03-24T01:04:15Z")
I picked this up on vinyl only a couple of months ago at a record store in country town Victoria, Australia. The guy had this and South of Heaven so I snapped both up - he told me he’d sold Seasons in the Abyss only the week before. All pristine original UK releases. Thrash is my guilty pleasure. [Previous page](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057.md?page=183) [Next page](https://community.roonlabs.com/t/mqa-disappointing/44057.md?page=185)