MQA Finale: Both Anti- and Pro- Forces Have Their Successes and Failure

From the article the OP referenced, the only observation that matters -

On another note, it’s disconcerting to find a Roon employee so passionately invested in what is, after all, a long running and never to be resolved, pointless harangue about MQA.

1 Like

that doesn’t negate the point-of-view that MQA is a deeply flawed and dishonest “solution” looking to monetise a non-existing problem.

MQA’s dishonest claims of a magical lossless “folding” compression algorithm is (a) manifestly false, and (b) not needed to solve the non-problem of

These mantras can be repeated over and over, and it doesn’t make any of them true. This is simply groupthink and group-delusion on the parts of the anti-MQA crowd, talking to each other for years until these become buzzwords. The article by Bill Leebens does a reasonable job summing up parts of it.

There is nothing deeply flawed about MQA. Get back to me when you understand the signal processing in it. As well as the psychoacoustics of hearing.

Bandwidth and storage are highly active topics in streaming that affect the future of streaming all over the world, including broadcast, tv, gaming, immersive audio and multichannel. Absolutely no one wants a solution involving 192 kHz/24b except a tiny group of audiophiles. Broadcast standards in most situations mandate data rates at or below 48 kHz. Discussions right now in broadcast are entirely in terms of AAC and the HE versions of it being fully transparent and more than enough, with slight nods to “some” audiophiles insisting on lossless code (considered a pointless indulgence in some of those circles).

So before a lot of blather about MQA on these websites, do some serious research on streaming today, what its problems are worldwide (especially bandwidth availability and cost), and what possible solutions exist. MQA can provide high resolution in situations where other waveforms can’t; and even that is a fight against the domination of lossy codecs everywhere.

4 Likes

Alot of us have had the luxury and/or knowledge to choose really good in-home networking components and devices that work well together to yield excellent and reliable music streaming over wifi and maybe live physically far enough away from neighbours such that whatever they do is not a problem.

OTOH, there are a lot (probably a vast majority) making do with whatever their ISP forced upon them, probably installed in a non ideal location in their home etc who struggle to even get a basic wifi light or switch to work reliably, never mind hi-res streaming, and they lack the knowledge/experience to do much about it and their ISP support dont consider it their fault either, so they do nothing about it unless it impacts the bundled TV streaming services.

Even with well researched good equipment, and a background of a career in and around software development, hardware development, networking at all levels, digital audio etc, you can easily end up with a software update one day to your router or some device that messes up a perfectly reliable system in some subtle way leaving you with little more than WTF?!?. Or a neighbour finds the high power mode on their router (it is has such a capability - mine does) and thinks that seems like a good idea when the damn thing is only the other side of the terraced house partition wall - ie less than a meter or so away from your gear.

The only way to avoid all/most this is go wired and avoid as much complexity and sources of failure as possible (even managed switches have been problems for people). It isnt that Wifi cant work reliably, it is that there are too many things that can go wrong that are pretty more impossible to diagnose/support remotely.

These days, cellular might actually be better for internet service unless you are a gamer. I actually get better upload/download speeds from EE in the UK at home on my iPhone that I do from BT infinity 2, but the latency is higher. Unlike BT, I dont recall it dropping out for several hours at a time while BT break/fiddle with something and fail to notify anyone or update service status etc and basically just lie about it when queried.

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Please follow your own advice…

3 Likes

Perhaps you’d like to explain your knowledge?

I am not talking without good reasons on those topics …

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A I recall, @HWZ is in the sound engineering profession. You?

Then there’s this -

Audio signal processing design, around 40 yrs experience.

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This is general and not to any particular poster.

I realize that this has become a religious war, but i’d like to add a few comments as someone who, decades ago, sat on JPEG/MPEG (for contribution-quality studio video), designs audio professionally, and has listened pretty extensively to formats. I’ll keep this to some quick comments in bullet format:

  1. Bandwidth matters on many fronts, from network congestion to cost for the streamer.
  2. The lossy discussion is non-binary. MQA is lossless for red book. It is a teensy bit lossy for high res.
  3. Our testing showed that high res formats (video or audio) have sufficient redundancy that they can suffer HUGE compression without any and then only small loss.
  4. It also showed that in viewing tests (studio quality video remember) even the lossy stuff was vastly better than lossless NTSC (“never twice the same color”) ":slight_smile:
  5. MQA does not charge to encode. It sells decoders. And the first unfold is free
  6. My listening tells me that the most critical contributor to quality is the original recording/mastering. Most of the stuff from Verve, blue note and Mercury from the early 1960s through 1970s, done on two and 3 track tape with Studer tube stuff or custom built stuff in the case of the Fines, blows away most modern HD (24/96 etc) recordings. Why? They cared. 16/44 car be fantastic.
  7. There are many solid reasons why 16/44 often sucks. Let’s start with pre-empahsis errors, sloppy level sets that reduce it to 11 bits effective, screechy mics (performers want mics with “pop”), heavy compression and complex mix-downs, blah, blah. And we worry about -96dB being sufficient? really?

I’ll point out that i have a very, very resolving system. I am not arrogant enough to think i can measure everything as we hear it. I understand psycho-acoustics (or under stand its principles and that none of us really understand it!!)

So let’s quit bickering over absolutes. Most of the MQA version i hear on Tidal are superior to the regular versions. I honestly doubt its the MQA tho - since almost all of them are also remastered with more care, less compression etc. Back to point #2 above. “its the recording stupid”

Listen to Horace Silver’s Songs for my Father (16/44), or Ella and Louis (16/44) or the MLP 1812. Eah is revelatory in suggesting where sonic problems are and are not.

Oh, and get your room right and set up your speakers.

Happy listening.

G

5 Likes

And there it is. Even the professionals snipe at each other over MQA.

1 Like

Only sensible thing to do is ban the conversation and send it underground

2 Likes

HWZ hasn’t sniped at MQA in this post (just at me, which is not a first :wink: ).

Excellent post, @Just_Me.
We are learning more about psychoacoustics and neuroscience though. I look forward to it changing the way audio is understood.

1 Like

Let me preface my analysis by stating that I am not the worlds foremost expert on WiFi, and that I invite any corrections.

I think you have a misunderstanding about how WiFi works. Your statement appears to assume that:

A. All routers support MU-MIMO.
B. All devices support MU-MIMO.
C. The devices are located far enough away from each other that they can be beamformed too separately.

MU-MIMO support was added to the WiFi spec in IEEE 802.11ac Wave 2 (aka WiFi 5 Wave 2). Remember, 802.11ac is limited to the 5GHz band, it won’t do anything for your 802.11n (WiFi 4) devices. MU-MIMO made it’s way to the 2.4GHz band in WiFi 6, but it’s really only useful if all of your client devices support it.

When your wireless network is not actively splitting spatial streams using MU-MIMO, your router is only capable of “talking” to one device at a time. In a congested 2.4GHz environment, this means that you’re fighting with with other APs on your within your channel slice for airtime.

To exemplify this, I devised a test using iperf3 on my home network. iperf3 uses a server/client architecture and enables testing of LAN speeds between devices. My setup is as follows:

  • iperf3 server running on two separate computers connected directly to gigabit switch
  • iperf3 client running on two seperate Raspberry Pi 3 B+
  • Wireless Access Point: Verizon G3100 (WiFi 6 Tri-Band, 4x4 spatial streams in each band (aka 12 stream))

The test procedure was:

  1. Run iperf3 on rpi1 individually.
  2. Run iperf3 on rp1 and rpi2 simultaneously.
  3. Run iperf3 on rpi2 individually.

Results:

raspberrypi-1 signal level: -61dBm
raspberrypi-1 solo: 14.7 Mbits/sec
raspberrypi-1 simultanious: 8.13 Mbits/sec

raspberrypi-2 signal level: -51dBm
raspberrypi-2 solo: 19.3 Mbits/sec
raspberrypi-2 simultanious: 13.2 Mbits/sec

raspberrypi-1 solo:
[ ID] Interval           Transfer     Bitrate         Retr  Cwnd
[  5]   0.00-1.00   sec  1.57 MBytes  13.2 Mbits/sec    1   76.4 KBytes
[  5]   1.00-2.00   sec  1.68 MBytes  14.1 Mbits/sec    0   93.3 KBytes
[  5]   2.00-3.00   sec  2.24 MBytes  18.8 Mbits/sec    0    105 KBytes
[  5]   3.00-4.00   sec  1.74 MBytes  14.6 Mbits/sec    4   84.8 KBytes
[  5]   4.00-5.00   sec  1.62 MBytes  13.6 Mbits/sec    0    103 KBytes
[  5]   5.00-6.00   sec  2.05 MBytes  17.2 Mbits/sec    2   82.0 KBytes
[  5]   6.00-7.00   sec  1.86 MBytes  15.6 Mbits/sec    0   96.2 KBytes
[  5]   7.00-8.00   sec  1.86 MBytes  15.6 Mbits/sec    2   84.8 KBytes
[  5]   8.00-9.00   sec  1.68 MBytes  14.1 Mbits/sec    0   96.2 KBytes
[  5]   9.00-10.00  sec  2.05 MBytes  17.2 Mbits/sec    0    110 KBytes
[  5]  10.00-11.00  sec  1.74 MBytes  14.6 Mbits/sec    0    122 KBytes
[  5]  11.00-12.00  sec  1.55 MBytes  13.0 Mbits/sec    1    103 KBytes
[  5]  12.00-13.00  sec  1.24 MBytes  10.4 Mbits/sec    0    117 KBytes
[  5]  13.00-14.00  sec  1.12 MBytes  9.38 Mbits/sec    1   91.9 KBytes
[  5]  14.00-15.00  sec  1.68 MBytes  14.1 Mbits/sec    2   73.5 KBytes
[  5]  15.00-16.00  sec  1.49 MBytes  12.5 Mbits/sec    0   87.7 KBytes
[  5]  16.00-17.00  sec  1.80 MBytes  15.1 Mbits/sec    0    103 KBytes
[  5]  17.00-18.00  sec  1.62 MBytes  13.6 Mbits/sec    0    113 KBytes
[  5]  18.00-19.00  sec  2.30 MBytes  19.3 Mbits/sec    0    127 KBytes
[  5]  19.00-20.00  sec  1.93 MBytes  16.2 Mbits/sec    0    137 KBytes
[  5]  20.00-21.00  sec  1.93 MBytes  16.2 Mbits/sec    0    148 KBytes
[  5]  21.00-22.00  sec  1.99 MBytes  16.7 Mbits/sec    1    117 KBytes
[  5]  22.00-23.00  sec  1.93 MBytes  16.2 Mbits/sec    0    139 KBytes
[  5]  23.00-24.00  sec  1.80 MBytes  15.1 Mbits/sec    8    107 KBytes
[  5]  24.00-25.00  sec  1.86 MBytes  15.6 Mbits/sec    8   83.4 KBytes
[  5]  25.00-26.00  sec  2.05 MBytes  17.2 Mbits/sec    0   99.0 KBytes
[  5]  26.00-27.00  sec  1.24 MBytes  10.4 Mbits/sec    2   58.0 KBytes
[  5]  27.00-28.00  sec  1.86 MBytes  15.6 Mbits/sec    0   80.6 KBytes
[  5]  28.00-29.00  sec  2.11 MBytes  17.7 Mbits/sec    0   96.2 KBytes
[  5]  29.00-30.00  sec  2.30 MBytes  19.3 Mbits/sec    3   79.2 KBytes
[  5]  30.00-31.00  sec  1.80 MBytes  15.1 Mbits/sec    0   97.6 KBytes
[  5]  31.00-32.00  sec  1.86 MBytes  15.6 Mbits/sec    2   74.9 KBytes
[  5]  32.00-33.00  sec  1.62 MBytes  13.6 Mbits/sec    0   89.1 KBytes
[  5]  33.00-34.00  sec  2.24 MBytes  18.8 Mbits/sec    0    106 KBytes
[  5]  34.00-35.00  sec  1.12 MBytes  9.38 Mbits/sec   14   19.8 KBytes
[  5]  35.00-36.00  sec  1.18 MBytes  9.91 Mbits/sec    7   42.4 KBytes
[  5]  36.00-37.00  sec  2.05 MBytes  17.2 Mbits/sec    0   67.9 KBytes
[  5]  37.00-38.00  sec  1.93 MBytes  16.2 Mbits/sec    0   87.7 KBytes
[  5]  38.00-39.00  sec  1.74 MBytes  14.6 Mbits/sec    0    102 KBytes
[  5]  39.00-40.00  sec  1.86 MBytes  15.6 Mbits/sec    0    115 KBytes
[  5]  40.00-41.00  sec  1.93 MBytes  16.2 Mbits/sec    0    126 KBytes
[  5]  41.00-42.00  sec  2.17 MBytes  18.2 Mbits/sec    0    137 KBytes
[  5]  42.00-43.00  sec  1.80 MBytes  15.1 Mbits/sec    9    109 KBytes
[  5]  43.00-44.00  sec  2.11 MBytes  17.7 Mbits/sec    1   93.3 KBytes
[  5]  44.00-45.00  sec  1.68 MBytes  14.1 Mbits/sec    1   73.5 KBytes
[  5]  45.00-46.00  sec  2.11 MBytes  17.7 Mbits/sec    0   90.5 KBytes
[  5]  46.00-47.00  sec  2.17 MBytes  18.2 Mbits/sec    0    107 KBytes
[  5]  47.00-48.00  sec  1.18 MBytes  9.90 Mbits/sec   33   56.6 KBytes
[  5]  48.00-49.00  sec  2.49 MBytes  20.9 Mbits/sec    1   58.0 KBytes
[  5]  49.00-50.00  sec  2.24 MBytes  18.8 Mbits/sec    0   82.0 KBytes
[  5]  50.00-51.00  sec  1.93 MBytes  16.2 Mbits/sec    0   97.6 KBytes
[  5]  51.00-52.00  sec  1.74 MBytes  14.6 Mbits/sec    0    112 KBytes
[  5]  52.00-53.00  sec  1.80 MBytes  15.1 Mbits/sec   19   62.2 KBytes
[  5]  53.00-54.00  sec   891 KBytes  7.30 Mbits/sec    0    107 KBytes
[  5]  54.00-55.00  sec   827 KBytes  6.78 Mbits/sec    0    120 KBytes
[  5]  55.00-56.00  sec   573 KBytes  4.69 Mbits/sec    0    124 KBytes
[  5]  56.00-57.00  sec   636 KBytes  5.21 Mbits/sec    0    124 KBytes
[  5]  57.00-58.00  sec  1.93 MBytes  16.2 Mbits/sec    0    124 KBytes
[  5]  58.00-59.00  sec  2.11 MBytes  17.7 Mbits/sec    0    129 KBytes
[  5]  59.00-60.00  sec  1.86 MBytes  15.6 Mbits/sec    0    139 KBytes
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[ ID] Interval           Transfer     Bitrate         Retr
[  5]   0.00-60.00  sec   105 MBytes  14.7 Mbits/sec  122             sender
[  5]   0.00-60.03  sec   105 MBytes  14.7 Mbits/sec                  receiver

raspberrypi-1 simultanious:
[ ID] Interval           Transfer     Bitrate         Retr  Cwnd
[  5]   0.00-1.00   sec  1.55 MBytes  13.0 Mbits/sec    0    139 KBytes
[  5]   1.00-2.00   sec  1.80 MBytes  15.1 Mbits/sec    0    215 KBytes
[  5]   2.00-3.00   sec  2.17 MBytes  18.2 Mbits/sec    0    322 KBytes
[  5]   3.00-4.00   sec  1.49 MBytes  12.5 Mbits/sec    1    256 KBytes
[  5]   4.00-5.00   sec  1.55 MBytes  13.0 Mbits/sec    0    290 KBytes
[  5]   5.00-6.00   sec  1.18 MBytes  9.90 Mbits/sec    0    311 KBytes
[  5]   6.00-7.00   sec  1.55 MBytes  13.0 Mbits/sec    0    322 KBytes
[  5]   7.00-8.00   sec   764 KBytes  6.25 Mbits/sec    0    327 KBytes
[  5]   8.00-9.00   sec   445 KBytes  3.65 Mbits/sec    1   1.41 KBytes
[  5]   9.00-10.00  sec  1.18 MBytes  9.91 Mbits/sec    0    382 KBytes
[  5]  10.00-11.00  sec  1.37 MBytes  11.5 Mbits/sec    2    307 KBytes
[  5]  11.00-12.00  sec  1.43 MBytes  12.0 Mbits/sec    0    341 KBytes
[  5]  12.00-13.00  sec  1018 KBytes  8.34 Mbits/sec    6    260 KBytes
[  5]  13.00-14.00  sec   509 KBytes  4.17 Mbits/sec    0    279 KBytes
[  5]  14.00-15.00  sec   509 KBytes  4.17 Mbits/sec    0    288 KBytes
[  5]  15.00-16.00  sec   954 KBytes  7.82 Mbits/sec    0    296 KBytes
[  5]  16.00-17.00  sec   509 KBytes  4.17 Mbits/sec    0    296 KBytes
[  5]  17.00-18.00  sec   509 KBytes  4.17 Mbits/sec    0    296 KBytes
[  5]  18.00-19.00  sec  1.30 MBytes  11.0 Mbits/sec    0    300 KBytes
[  5]  19.00-20.00  sec  0.00 Bytes  0.00 bits/sec    0    305 KBytes
[  5]  20.00-21.00  sec  1.37 MBytes  11.5 Mbits/sec    0    334 KBytes
[  5]  21.00-22.00  sec   573 KBytes  4.69 Mbits/sec    9    255 KBytes
[  5]  22.00-23.00  sec  1.43 MBytes  12.0 Mbits/sec    0    297 KBytes
[  5]  23.00-24.00  sec   509 KBytes  4.17 Mbits/sec    0    317 KBytes
[  5]  24.00-25.00  sec  1.12 MBytes  9.39 Mbits/sec    2    235 KBytes
[  5]  25.00-26.00  sec   954 KBytes  7.82 Mbits/sec    0    255 KBytes
[  5]  26.00-27.00  sec   573 KBytes  4.69 Mbits/sec    0    266 KBytes
[  5]  27.00-28.00  sec   954 KBytes  7.82 Mbits/sec    0    272 KBytes
[  5]  28.00-29.00  sec  1.43 MBytes  12.0 Mbits/sec    0    272 KBytes
[  5]  29.00-30.00  sec   954 KBytes  7.82 Mbits/sec    0    272 KBytes
[  5]  30.00-31.00  sec  1018 KBytes  8.34 Mbits/sec    0    276 KBytes
[  5]  31.00-32.00  sec   509 KBytes  4.17 Mbits/sec    0    281 KBytes
[  5]  32.00-33.00  sec   509 KBytes  4.17 Mbits/sec    0    301 KBytes
[  5]  33.00-34.00  sec  1.30 MBytes  10.9 Mbits/sec    0    329 KBytes
[  5]  34.00-35.00  sec  1.74 MBytes  14.6 Mbits/sec    0    387 KBytes
[  5]  35.00-36.00  sec  2.36 MBytes  19.8 Mbits/sec    0    464 KBytes
[  5]  36.00-37.00  sec  2.11 MBytes  17.7 Mbits/sec    0    544 KBytes
[  5]  37.00-38.00  sec  1.99 MBytes  16.7 Mbits/sec    0    676 KBytes
[  5]  38.00-39.00  sec  1.55 MBytes  13.0 Mbits/sec    0    786 KBytes
[  5]  39.00-40.00  sec  1.74 MBytes  14.6 Mbits/sec    0    928 KBytes
[  5]  40.00-41.00  sec  1018 KBytes  8.34 Mbits/sec    0    949 KBytes
[  5]  41.00-42.00  sec  2.31 MBytes  19.4 Mbits/sec    0   1.21 MBytes
[  5]  42.00-43.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    1    868 KBytes
[  5]  43.00-44.00  sec  0.00 Bytes  0.00 bits/sec    0    836 KBytes
[  5]  44.00-45.00  sec  0.00 Bytes  0.00 bits/sec    1   1.41 KBytes
[  5]  45.00-46.00  sec  0.00 Bytes  0.00 bits/sec    0   1.41 KBytes
[  5]  46.00-47.00  sec  0.00 Bytes  0.00 bits/sec    0   1.41 KBytes
[  5]  47.00-48.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec   25    107 KBytes
[  5]  48.00-49.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    0    160 KBytes
[  5]  49.00-50.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    2    148 KBytes
[  5]  50.00-51.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    3    120 KBytes
[  5]  51.00-52.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    0    130 KBytes
[  5]  52.00-53.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    0    133 KBytes
[  5]  53.00-54.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    0    134 KBytes
[  5]  54.00-55.00  sec  0.00 Bytes  0.00 bits/sec    0    136 KBytes
[  5]  55.00-56.00  sec  0.00 Bytes  0.00 bits/sec    0    139 KBytes
[  5]  56.00-57.00  sec  0.00 Bytes  0.00 bits/sec    1   21.2 KBytes
[  5]  57.00-58.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    0    102 KBytes
[  5]  58.00-59.00  sec  0.00 Bytes  0.00 bits/sec    0    123 KBytes
[  5]  59.00-60.00  sec  0.00 Bytes  0.00 bits/sec    0    133 KBytes
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[ ID] Interval           Transfer     Bitrate         Retr
[  5]   0.00-60.00  sec  60.8 MBytes  8.50 Mbits/sec   54             sender
[  5]   0.00-60.08  sec  58.3 MBytes  8.13 Mbits/sec                  receiver

raspberrypi-2 solo: 
[ ID] Interval           Transfer     Bitrate         Retr  Cwnd
[  5]   0.00-1.00   sec  2.72 MBytes  22.8 Mbits/sec    0    178 KBytes
[  5]   1.00-2.00   sec  2.36 MBytes  19.8 Mbits/sec    0    288 KBytes
[  5]   2.00-3.00   sec  2.42 MBytes  20.3 Mbits/sec    0    383 KBytes
[  5]   3.00-4.00   sec  2.42 MBytes  20.3 Mbits/sec    0    491 KBytes
[  5]   4.00-5.00   sec  1.55 MBytes  13.0 Mbits/sec    0    540 KBytes
[  5]   5.00-6.00   sec  2.55 MBytes  21.4 Mbits/sec    0    629 KBytes
[  5]   6.00-7.00   sec  2.24 MBytes  18.8 Mbits/sec    0    707 KBytes
[  5]   7.00-8.00   sec  2.30 MBytes  19.3 Mbits/sec    0    790 KBytes
[  5]   8.00-9.00   sec  2.67 MBytes  22.4 Mbits/sec    0    846 KBytes
[  5]   9.00-10.00  sec  2.61 MBytes  21.9 Mbits/sec    0    846 KBytes
[  5]  10.00-11.00  sec  1.99 MBytes  16.7 Mbits/sec    0    889 KBytes
[  5]  11.00-12.00  sec  1.93 MBytes  16.2 Mbits/sec    0    949 KBytes
[  5]  12.00-13.00  sec  3.42 MBytes  28.7 Mbits/sec    0   1.19 MBytes
[  5]  13.00-14.00  sec  3.75 MBytes  31.5 Mbits/sec    0   1.40 MBytes
[  5]  14.00-15.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   1.69 MBytes
[  5]  15.00-16.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   2.08 MBytes
[  5]  16.00-17.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    0   2.18 MBytes
[  5]  17.00-18.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    0   2.26 MBytes
[  5]  18.00-19.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   2.97 MBytes
[  5]  19.00-20.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   3.29 MBytes
[  5]  20.00-21.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   3.29 MBytes
[  5]  21.00-22.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   3.29 MBytes
[  5]  22.00-23.00  sec  5.00 MBytes  42.0 Mbits/sec    8   2.30 MBytes
[  5]  23.00-24.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    0   2.30 MBytes
[  5]  24.00-25.00  sec  3.75 MBytes  31.5 Mbits/sec    6   1.64 MBytes
[  5]  25.00-26.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   1.68 MBytes
[  5]  26.00-27.00  sec  3.75 MBytes  31.5 Mbits/sec    0   1.76 MBytes
[  5]  27.00-28.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   1.84 MBytes
[  5]  28.00-29.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    1    880 KBytes
[  5]  29.00-30.00  sec  3.75 MBytes  31.5 Mbits/sec    0   1.34 MBytes
[  5]  30.00-31.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   1.43 MBytes
[  5]  31.00-32.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   1.50 MBytes
[  5]  32.00-33.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   1.54 MBytes
[  5]  33.00-34.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   1.57 MBytes
[  5]  34.00-35.00  sec  3.75 MBytes  31.5 Mbits/sec    2   1.11 MBytes
[  5]  35.00-36.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    0   1.17 MBytes
[  5]  36.00-37.00  sec  3.75 MBytes  31.5 Mbits/sec    0   1.22 MBytes
[  5]  37.00-38.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   1.29 MBytes
[  5]  38.00-39.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    1   1.15 MBytes
[  5]  39.00-40.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0    946 KBytes
[  5]  40.00-41.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    0    984 KBytes
[  5]  41.00-42.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    0   1005 KBytes
[  5]  42.00-43.00  sec  0.00 Bytes  0.00 bits/sec    0   1.04 MBytes
[  5]  43.00-44.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    0   1.04 MBytes
[  5]  44.00-45.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    0   1.09 MBytes
[  5]  45.00-46.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   1.11 MBytes
[  5]  46.00-47.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    0   1.11 MBytes
[  5]  47.00-48.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   1.11 MBytes
[  5]  48.00-49.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    0   1.11 MBytes
[  5]  49.00-50.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   1.12 MBytes
[  5]  50.00-51.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   1.14 MBytes
[  5]  51.00-52.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    0   1.14 MBytes
[  5]  52.00-53.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   1.14 MBytes
[  5]  53.00-54.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   1.14 MBytes
[  5]  54.00-55.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0   1.35 MBytes
[  5]  55.00-56.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    0   1.43 MBytes
[  5]  56.00-57.00  sec  1.25 MBytes  10.5 Mbits/sec    6    233 KBytes
[  5]  57.00-58.00  sec  3.75 MBytes  31.5 Mbits/sec    1    533 KBytes
[  5]  58.00-59.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0    574 KBytes
[  5]  59.00-60.00  sec  2.50 MBytes  21.0 Mbits/sec    0    601 KBytes
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[ ID] Interval           Transfer     Bitrate         Retr
[  5]   0.00-60.00  sec   141 MBytes  19.7 Mbits/sec   25             sender
[  5]   0.00-60.03  sec   138 MBytes  19.3 Mbits/sec                  receiver

raspberrypi-2 simultanious: 
[ ID] Interval           Transfer     Bitrate         Retr  Cwnd
[  5]   0.00-1.00   sec   848 KBytes  6.95 Mbits/sec    0    117 KBytes
[  5]   1.00-2.00   sec   954 KBytes  7.82 Mbits/sec    0    156 KBytes
[  5]   2.00-3.00   sec   954 KBytes  7.82 Mbits/sec    0    199 KBytes
[  5]   3.00-4.00   sec   827 KBytes  6.78 Mbits/sec    0    236 KBytes
[  5]   4.00-5.00   sec  1.30 MBytes  10.9 Mbits/sec    0    296 KBytes
[  5]   5.00-6.00   sec  1.86 MBytes  15.6 Mbits/sec    0    346 KBytes
[  5]   6.00-7.00   sec  1.24 MBytes  10.4 Mbits/sec    0    416 KBytes
[  5]   7.00-8.00   sec  1.49 MBytes  12.5 Mbits/sec    0    447 KBytes
[  5]   8.00-9.00   sec  1018 KBytes  8.34 Mbits/sec    0    479 KBytes
[  5]   9.00-10.00  sec  1.74 MBytes  14.6 Mbits/sec    0    573 KBytes
[  5]  10.00-11.00  sec  2.11 MBytes  17.7 Mbits/sec    2    475 KBytes
[  5]  11.00-12.00  sec  2.11 MBytes  17.7 Mbits/sec    0    537 KBytes
[  5]  12.00-13.00  sec  1.49 MBytes  12.5 Mbits/sec    0    591 KBytes
[  5]  13.00-14.00  sec  2.36 MBytes  19.8 Mbits/sec    3    440 KBytes
[  5]  14.00-15.00  sec  1.43 MBytes  12.0 Mbits/sec    8    327 KBytes
[  5]  15.00-16.00  sec  2.11 MBytes  17.7 Mbits/sec    0    351 KBytes
[  5]  16.00-17.00  sec  1.49 MBytes  12.5 Mbits/sec    0    368 KBytes
[  5]  17.00-18.00  sec  1.43 MBytes  12.0 Mbits/sec    0    376 KBytes
[  5]  18.00-19.00  sec   764 KBytes  6.25 Mbits/sec    0    378 KBytes
[  5]  19.00-20.00  sec  2.11 MBytes  17.7 Mbits/sec    0    378 KBytes
[  5]  20.00-21.00  sec  2.11 MBytes  17.7 Mbits/sec    0    379 KBytes
[  5]  21.00-22.00  sec  2.17 MBytes  18.2 Mbits/sec    0    385 KBytes
[  5]  22.00-23.00  sec  2.17 MBytes  18.2 Mbits/sec    0    400 KBytes
[  5]  23.00-24.00  sec  1.43 MBytes  12.0 Mbits/sec    4    297 KBytes
[  5]  24.00-25.00  sec  1018 KBytes  8.34 Mbits/sec    8    223 KBytes
[  5]  25.00-26.00  sec  1.49 MBytes  12.5 Mbits/sec    0    247 KBytes
[  5]  26.00-27.00  sec  1.49 MBytes  12.5 Mbits/sec    0    260 KBytes
[  5]  27.00-28.00  sec  1.49 MBytes  12.5 Mbits/sec    0    264 KBytes
[  5]  28.00-29.00  sec  2.11 MBytes  17.7 Mbits/sec    0    264 KBytes
[  5]  29.00-30.00  sec  1.55 MBytes  13.0 Mbits/sec    0    264 KBytes
[  5]  30.00-31.00  sec  1.43 MBytes  12.0 Mbits/sec    0    267 KBytes
[  5]  31.00-32.00  sec  1.55 MBytes  13.0 Mbits/sec    0    277 KBytes
[  5]  32.00-33.00  sec  0.00 Bytes  0.00 bits/sec    1   1.41 KBytes
[  5]  33.00-34.00  sec  1.43 MBytes  12.0 Mbits/sec    1    320 KBytes
[  5]  34.00-35.00  sec  0.00 Bytes  0.00 bits/sec    0    355 KBytes
[  5]  35.00-36.00  sec  1.43 MBytes  12.0 Mbits/sec    0    421 KBytes
[  5]  36.00-37.00  sec  1.49 MBytes  12.5 Mbits/sec    0    479 KBytes
[  5]  37.00-38.00  sec  1.49 MBytes  12.5 Mbits/sec    2    358 KBytes
[  5]  38.00-39.00  sec  0.00 Bytes  0.00 bits/sec    0    399 KBytes
[  5]  39.00-40.00  sec  1.62 MBytes  13.6 Mbits/sec    0    454 KBytes
[  5]  40.00-41.00  sec  2.24 MBytes  18.8 Mbits/sec    0    482 KBytes
[  5]  41.00-42.00  sec  2.86 MBytes  24.0 Mbits/sec    0    498 KBytes
[  5]  42.00-43.00  sec  2.80 MBytes  23.5 Mbits/sec    1    363 KBytes
[  5]  43.00-44.00  sec  2.24 MBytes  18.8 Mbits/sec    0    395 KBytes
[  5]  44.00-45.00  sec  2.98 MBytes  25.0 Mbits/sec    0    413 KBytes
[  5]  45.00-46.00  sec  1.55 MBytes  13.0 Mbits/sec    0    420 KBytes
[  5]  46.00-47.00  sec  0.00 Bytes  0.00 bits/sec    0    421 KBytes
[  5]  47.00-48.00  sec  0.00 Bytes  0.00 bits/sec    0    423 KBytes
[  5]  48.00-49.00  sec   764 KBytes  6.26 Mbits/sec    0    424 KBytes
[  5]  49.00-50.00  sec  1.55 MBytes  13.0 Mbits/sec    0    430 KBytes
[  5]  50.00-51.00  sec  2.24 MBytes  18.8 Mbits/sec    0    444 KBytes
[  5]  51.00-52.00  sec  1.43 MBytes  12.0 Mbits/sec    0    465 KBytes
[  5]  52.00-53.00  sec  1.62 MBytes  13.6 Mbits/sec    8    339 KBytes
[  5]  53.00-54.00  sec  2.17 MBytes  18.2 Mbits/sec    0    396 KBytes
[  5]  54.00-55.00  sec  2.11 MBytes  17.7 Mbits/sec    0    434 KBytes
[  5]  55.00-56.00  sec  1.49 MBytes  12.5 Mbits/sec    2    322 KBytes
[  5]  56.00-57.00  sec  2.24 MBytes  18.8 Mbits/sec    0    354 KBytes
[  5]  57.00-58.00  sec  2.98 MBytes  25.0 Mbits/sec    0    370 KBytes
[  5]  58.00-59.00  sec  2.17 MBytes  18.2 Mbits/sec   18    250 KBytes
[  5]  59.00-60.00  sec  3.54 MBytes  29.7 Mbits/sec    0    286 KBytes
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[ ID] Interval           Transfer     Bitrate         Retr
[  5]   0.00-60.00  sec  96.0 MBytes  13.4 Mbits/sec   58             sender
[  5]   0.00-60.06  sec  94.5 MBytes  13.2 Mbits/sec                  receiver

I captured the test in a screencap video which can be viewed here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HQCQb8d59hs8HdQcMJ5gl_rurUiKrNEV/view?usp=sharing

2 Likes

Wow, right there, is the whole MQA problem in a nutshell.

  1. Stonewall: State “There is nothing deeply flawed about MQA”, but fail to provide any factual evidence - you know, something, anything, that can be independently verified.
  2. Discredit the opposition: You are in no position to disprove claims that MQA is lying, so instead you bizarrely assert I don’t understand “the signal processing of it”. As a qualified engineer I can certainly hold my own with Fourier, Laplace, and Z transforms, but my understanding of signal processing doesn’t help me one bit with MQA. You wanna know why? No one, outside of MQA’s proprietary inner circle, with or without a PHD in Signals, can possibly understand it because MQA refuses to publish it. Not only that, they refuse to even allow an end-to-end “black box” test of its claims. Why? Because they know their claims will crash down in the face of independent scrutiny.
  3. Misdirection: You then call to question my understanding of the psychoacoustics of hearing. If MQA is lossless, as they claim, then why on earth would that be relevant? Oh, wait…

I’ll double down. MQA is not just deeply flawed. It is deeply dishonest too.

6 Likes

Oh, 3 more quick comments having seen the discussion of wifi throughput above:

  1. If at all possible, direct wired ethernet is vastly superior to wifi. All my stuff is wired.
  2. If oyu need to do wifi, consider a very good mesh system. I have 3 Nokia beacons and routinely get > 200 mbps through them. And yet i still hard wire. Consider that.
  3. I have found (not entirely sure why yet…) that if i needlessly feed 32 bits to say, an 18 or 20 bit ladder DAC, i can get stuttering. Dropping it to 24 fixes that. So either the added bandwidth or the conversion (how hard is it to drop bots i ask) are in the way.

I will note that the “how hard…?” part may go hand in hand with what i have foudn as a slowly wade into DAC/player design: Most hgih end designs are basically datasheets with fancy faceplates and a few higher end parts. I’ve fixed problems by using truly advanced ideas like memory and shift registers (tongue in cheek for barbed replies) or coupling transformers. So never be too sure how your gear will handle the digital stream. I wonder what Roon found on characterization. They can;t talk of course. Too bad, i’d like to have a conversation with their lab’s walls.

G

1 Like

I do not care about about the technology of MQA even one iota. All I care about is sound. After going onto the 2L test bench, and downloading all selections in all formats from Redbook up, making sure my Roon and Cocktail Audio X45PRO were set up for optimum MQA playback, I random played each work, one by one, and all formats for that work. It was easy to tell when MQA came on as the quality dropped. Even Redbook sounded better than MQA. This went on for about five hours. Non-MQA always beat MQA. That is all I care about. For those who like and prefer MQA, happy listening. But, I refuse to knowingly listen to an MQA track, just as I refuse to listen to mp3 tracks.

2 Likes

I prefer wired, but have read from two to three “experts” that they considered WFi superior (of course they didn’t explain why).

Wifi better than wired? My two cents is “that’s crazy”. Why:

  1. Lower throughput
  2. More timing issues
  3. Susceptible to interference and fade that makes the above worse

Its just, IMO, not even remotely possible.

Wire it.

2 Likes

I agree. That’s one reason why I put expert in quotes (probably the most overused and misused word in the English language, imho!)

@AndrMu

As a qualified engineer I can certainly hold my own with Fourier, Laplace, and Z transforms, but my understanding of signal processing doesn’t help me one bit with MQA.

It’s easy to sympathize with that. You may not be aware of audio dsp enough to realize that it’s specialized and that basic transform theory is just a start. MQA leans heavily into some specific areas:
lossless and lossy compression methods
buried data “hiding”
sampling theory and finite rate of innovation sampling
the range of filtering, dither, and noise shaping methods used in audio signal chains, which have a lot of subtleties.

If you have background in the above, MQA is not such a deep mystery. It still takes reading papers and patents.