I was just confirming …
… as is all of the surround-sound processing.
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I wondered how long it was going to take before the fact I use an AVR was going to be rubbished.
My husband and I both have ears. I can assure you that using DACS is NOT a waste of money. Different DACS have sound differences. The difference in sound between mp3 and red book is obvious, as is the difference between red book and 192khz, and DSD sound is different again.
Neither of us are fools nor do hear what we want to hear.
On the basis that my AVR ignores the DAC then Roon is also a waste of money not to mention HQP and the comparisons between these and Audirvana and MC and Amarra are all in our imaginations.
I really don’t think so. I have been aware for a very long time that AVR are looked down upon and am frankly surprised it took so long before these sort of posts started appearing about my choice.
However, I do think the changing my DAC is a silly thing to do but only because I don’t have files of 768khz or DSD256 and it is highly unlikely I will.
Just as silly as adding an amp to satisfy those who look down upon AVR. HTF would I feed and AVR and an Amp to the speakers?
BTW this AVR other than the ability to play music in surround, very well, it will also push out 9 channel stereo. So I get stereo coming out of 3 pairs, which fills the room. If I choose to I can use Pure Direct, which means the speakers either side of my chair are only speakers that give sound. Nothing wrong with it at all. I just like the fuller sound of stereo from 3 pairs.
And I am common enough to have HQP process to 7.1 and listen that way. In my imagination, of course, it sounds great. I can hear the instrumentals spread out, individual instruments coming out of rear or centre or front of wherever the track dictates with the voice hovering around the centre. Being an artist by nature, I have a good imagination and it works very well with music listening.
Such a shame I can’t make my imagination work well enough without spending thousands, 20+, on my system. To think I could have saved all that since it does nothing.
Having just spoken to my Yamaha man just to confirm I was right about the AVR 
it has two dacs in it, it knows the difference between a film and high res audio. As our ears already told us.
Plus the diagram is from 2008 models. My AVR is 2019 model. I still have mobiles laying around from back then. One cannot compare a 12 year old model to the present model.
Plus in about September, C19 allowing, the upgraded AVR will be released and yours truly will have it asap.
In the end it’s about what one hears.
Putting this nonsense aside, I have been thinking a lot about what I ought to do. I came to the conclusion that I am happy with what I have. There is no need to add another DAC.
I shall just wait to upgrade the AVR.
Not going to Frankfurt this month and not going to Barcelona in September, (I assume that will be out too) saves ,money and I might as well just save it. As yet I have to pay for the WAV(wheelchair adapted vehicle) which they stopped building when the lockdown started and as yet no restart.
Sharing and asking questions here is very good for me. It helps me sort out my head. I am not interested in audiophile snobbery or arguing the toss.
Like life, it’s about enjoyment and what suits us. It isn’t about living according to the values of others. Doing that nearly killed me. No exaggeration.
There is most definitely a very audible reason to have a good dac attached to my AVR. We both enjoy that sound. That is all that matters.
Why am I referred to as OP? My name is Colin. I am sure I have said so.
Kind regards
Colin
Thank you Dirk. Do you mean you only play DSD 256 or that you upsample everything to DSD256? I’ll go and look at this. Is T&A 8 DSD dac all I have to search for?
Is your core on Windows or Mac?
I am still not certain if I understand properly about this DoP thing. If the DAC can produce high enough PCM then the MBP can send DSD at 256 or even 512 as long as it can be packed into a high enough KHZ PCM?
Put simply, I think, from what Jussi and others have written, the reason I cannot play DSD 256 is because my DAC cannot produce high enough PCM.
I am going to have to wait and see what happens about our 2nd holiday this year and after I have bought the 2020 Yamaha AV RECEIVER. I don’t fly as with a wheelchair ect it is just too hard. Plus I hate it. Plus we normally come home with at least another suitcase full. 
I am fortunate that I can drive. Well and comfortably. Driving is much more interesting anyway.
mmm…it seems I may have much difficulty getting one of these in the UK. A simple search produced one ‘sole importer’ and a website © 2018 and little info.
I might be able to find more with a deeper search.
Thank you John.
These are sold online via Vinshine Audio. I waited about 2 weeks to get mine once they shipped. You are not going to find one in a store.
I tend to buy everything online as too many places are not suitable for wheelchair users.
However, buying mail order from outside the UK, and after this year, even from the EU, is expensive and dodgy. A service or repair by having to send it back to the USA? Maybe if I were a millionaire or could find a better off husband…
It’s Singapore not USA. But I get what you are saying.
What does Roon Ready mean? I downloaded the trial and it just did it’s thing with no special DAC. In fact I can switch between Roon, HQ Desktop 4, Audirvana and Media Centre and even iTunes (in error).
Hi , I do indeed mean that I upsampling all music to DSD256.
Yue are also correct , your Mac will need a Dac with highrate PCM in order to get DSD256 or higher to be played using DoP.
I have forgotten to take this into account, so I should not have recommended the T+A 8 DSD dac to you. It will only support DSD128 with MacOS.
So probably the recommende Project dac can work for you as is supports up to 768kHz PCM.
Dirk.
P.S. I have a dedicated server from Pink Faun , running Linux.
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I think you misunderstood.
Unless you are listening to analogue inputs in “Pure Direct” mode, then the sound that you hear, coming out of your AVR, is produced by the onboard ESS SABRE ES9026PRO DAC (to be more precise, the main 7 channels are handled by the ES9026PRO; the remaining channels are handled by an ES9007S DAC).
The analogue signal is run through an ADC (analogue-to-digital converter), digitally-processed, and then converted back to analogue by the ES9026PRO.
Since everything passes through the ES9026PRO, the best results will come from feeding your AVR a digital signal. The extra digital→analogue→digital conversions cannot improve the final product. At best, they can make it no worse.
As far as I was able to gather, the ADC in the RX-A3080 samples the analogue input at 192kHz 96kHz (please, someone correct me!). The ES9026PRO can handle digital inputs up to 384kHz. That’s just one way to quantify why putting a DAC in front of the AVR and feeding the AVR an analogue signal produces results inferior to what you’d get by directly feeding it the digital signal.
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Basically, it means that it’s a streamer as well as a DAC, so Roon will find it on the network, and that it supports the RAAT protocol.
Hi Colin,
As Jacques also suggested, there may be a misunderstanding here.
I actually bought and setup my old man (dad’s) multiple Roon + HQPlayer listening zones at his house (some DSD256/512 zones, some PCM192kHz zones).
The main server is an i9-9900K running both Roon and HQPlayer.
One of his zones and probably the one that gets mostly used is the living room which features an Allo DigiOne endpoint (running HQPlayer NAA) feeding his Denon 4520 AVR.
So if I were rubbishing AVR’s I’d be rubbishing my own hard earned dollars !
In that setup he has HQPlayer upsampling to PCM192kHz and feeding that via digital coax into his Denon. He loves it!
The HQPlayer & Roon server is one one side of the house and there is Cat 6 cabling to each of the different listening rooms.
He has a Pro-Ject S2 DAC that he uses for headphones but I told him it would be a tremendous waste to use that with his Denon because the Denon has useful digital room EQ so anything from an external DAC will be getting resampled to 96kHz or even maybe 48kHz. He did try it but agreed with me it would be a waste.
So no matter what external DAC you connect, the final D-to-A will always be done by the AVR. Unless in Pure Direct mode but then you lose all of the AVR’s DSP features. Which can be useful.
So I can relate to the HQPlayer and AVR thing very well.
Agree 100% !
I’m just throwing out ideas in case maybe you weren’t aware - like feeding your AVR with a digital signal from HQPlayer.
This streamer can run HQPlayer NAA, meaning your HQPlayer server will (should) see it over the network and play to it.
https://allo.com/sparky/digione-player.html
But in all honesty if you and your husband are really enjoying the music at present, don’t worry about all this other fiddling.
Life is short! Continue to enjoy the music.
Just to throw out a few more ideas. If I understand correctly, Colin, your current setup is
Macbook Pro —usb→ DAC —rca→ AVR.
To use HQPlayer with the digital inputs to the AVR , you could
- Buy an USB-C → HDMI adapter (~$30) and go
Macbook Pro —hdmi→ AVR. - Buy a streamer, like the Allo one @dabassgoesboomboom suggested (or a Raspberry Pi based one, like this one) and go
Macbook Pro —network→ Streamer —coax→ AVR - Buy a Raspberry Pi and go
Macbook Pro —network→ Streamer —hdmi→ AVR
I’m not familiar enough with HQPlayer to know the relative merits of these various options.
The only issue with hdmi→ AVR options is sample rate limitations. And getting it to work. I tried with my old man’s setup.
The easiest solution is Streamer → digital coax→ AVR
Whether a Roon endpoint or HQP NAA endpoint.
Just speaking from personal experience (not any expertise)
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Actually, there’s a 4th (and even simpler) option: connect a TOSLINK optical cable to the headphone port of the Macbook Pro.
Good point. HDMI tops out at sample rates of 192kHz.
Theoretically, that shouldn’t be an issue for your Dad’s Denon 4520 AVR, which uses seven (!) PCM1795 DAC chips. Those also top out at 192kHz.
But that’s just the theory …
I may well have and if if so I owe you an apology.
I know it will play 384khz and 256DSD. I put a PCM 384 music file on a flash drive along with a DSD 256. It played bot with no problems and the info it showed said exactly what it was playing, the sampling rates and that it was analogue.
What I don’t get is that when playing via Roon with HQP as the plug in, it says it is palying 2 channel analogue but gives no sample rate. I have just emailed the writer of the very detailed info to ask what the capabiulities are of the RCA connections. Would the XLR connections make any difference.
According to the info supplied by the AV screen does not show that it is changing the an anlogue signal to anything.
The other thing is this: despite the AVR reporting correctly it was playing PCM 384 and then DSD256, neither sound as good as when playing same tracks via Roon/HQP and the DAC. And they definitely sound better in 192 or DSD64.
I am just about done in. Oh the other info also said one can connect am amp to the AVR but didn’t really make it clear.
A lot of hat you have written and the other man too is over my head. I find many explanations assume I know the references when I don’t.
All I know is that maybe the highest res can only be got thru the USB port on the front of the AVR and I can’t deny that music upsampled to DSD 64 and 384khz
most definitely sounds better when it is upsampled and nothing else. NO EQ in play.
I can o nly think that the analogue does play high res files too.
My head hnurts. I am off to bed.,
I could never get 192kHz working with the Denon AVR on HDMI input… but I’m hardly the sharpest tool in the shed!
So it’s possible someone else could get it to work.
Digital coax is easy to get working.
Analogue signals don’t have a sample rate. It doesn’t matter whether RCA or XLR.
Either way, inside your AVR, the analogue signal gets sampled to 96kHz (turned back into digital), digitally manipulated, and then turned back in to analogue by the built-in DAC chip.
If you use the digital inputs to your AVR, you’ll bypass the superfluous digital→analogue→digital conversions, and your AVR will be able to report the sample rate of the original digital signal.
