New streaming service(s) coming in 2023

Now Apple classical will be out end of March 23 I expect the great search criteria of the former Primephonic is maintained in the new Apple classic

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The new Apple clasical is based in the former Primephonic which was created by clasical music professionals, it means not just searching albums but allowing search for period type of music composers and works
It could be done by roon itself if in the metadata base there are all those data incorporated , independently of data of the albums and after can be search and relaciones with albums data
It is like a classical enciclopedia of author, woks, type of music, period, country all those in a data base to be relaciones in the relational data base, with album metadata
I believe Roon can implement it
Let see if the new Apple classical have kept the former Primephonic concept

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Do you mean “beyond reproach”?

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Yes I was struck by the unfortunate irony of that as well :joy:

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Soon Apple will launch Apple Music Classical - a new app designed for classical music. It’s content knowledge will come from Primephonic. It will also include deep metadata in a Roon-like form.

I do not expect any form of integration between Apple Music and Roon, to be honest.

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There’s a topic on this, for those that wish to discuss the pros and cons of this new App in detail …

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Arthur…thanks for catching my error…you are correct!

That’s simply not accurate. Apple would still be able to collect data from Roon

This is correct. The clearest example is Spotify Connect - a brilliant solution to this problem while retaining all of the advantages of streaming directly to the rendering device. Apple has yet to get such a solution, but nonetheless, they understand the value of user information.

But even if they didn’t, there is no meaningful upside for Apple to put in the integration work and maintenance of it for just 100k user uptick.

I do expect it. I think Roon need it to survive.

I don’t think so… Apple, with its own app, can collect everything you search for, every navigation in the app, any time spent on a particular part/feature of the app, etc. Even if Roon could provide all of this it would require that Apple put effort in understanding what Roon’s information means, and it would be an entirely different and not comparable set of data as the app, features, and architecture of the user interface is completely different.

Then maybe the answer is Roon will not survive. But I don’t think this is the case… Roon can survive just fine with Tidal and Qobuz, frankly.

The other aspect that I am missing here is: Why do we care? I have both Tidal and Qobuz because the content coverage is not exactly the same, and there are VERY few instances where something is only available in Spotify or Apple Music that is not available in Tidal and/or Qobuz.

As for metadata improvements, Primephonic and/or Presto might provide an edge there.

For the record, I also subscribe to Spotify (music at the gym, streaming to SONOS, etc) and I get Apple Music for free from my cell provider. I use them all and don’t miss Spotify or Apple Music at all when using Roon.

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Apple purchased Primephonic to solve its problem with Classical Music.

In 2019 it has less than 100,000 subscribers…

“But running a music-streaming service is a challenge. You need a lot of money and a lot of lawyers to get to the size of Spotify just to work out where [all the money is going] the verge 2018
Even then, it’s difficult to be profitable. Only this year did the streaming giant [make money] engadget 2019, and other platforms such as Tidal have been repeatedly plagued by [poor profits] gizmodo
For Primephonic, Steffens (CEO) says the company needs to have 100,000 subscribers for several years to break even. It’s not there yet.” PC Mag 2019

Primephonic CEO Thomas Steffans said that the split between the two subscriptions was roughly 45/55 with most opting for the higher audio quality.”

Apple have a big problem with hi-res/lossless with customers wanting to use hi quality music systems (not just audiophiles) even though their executive team doesn’t believe more than 0.1% can tell the difference.

That problem is that an Apple iOS device needs to be tethered to a DAC to experience HiRes (AirPlay is lossless but not Hi-Res). Roon solves this and is also a more elegant solution than AirPlay. It’s not necessarily about bagging just another mere 100,000 subscribers, but enabling a better user experience. Particularly for those Classical music enthusiasts and those wanting to explore Classical Music for the first time.

They could have created their own Classical Music app but it wouldn’t have been easy or entirely legal just to copy an already elegant solution, hence the acquisition. I’m not suggesting Apple would/could acquire Roon but integrating would be an elegant solution.

It could happen.

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I have the same setup except with no Spotify. Qobuz is my priority on Roon then Tidal. In the car it’s Apple Music.

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Yes, true, but nowhere near as much. Nowhere.

It’s the same reason they have disallowed for the most part from apps selling subscriptions outside the App Store.

And regardless of our quibbles on how much or how little data Apple can collect, the downside for Apple is enough and their business model is such that there’s still no way they will allow third party integration.

I think it also diminishes their brand quality. Apple positions itself as a customer-facing brand and a premium one at that. Being the backend for some small company like Roon is just not part of their brand–and I’d argue not good for them. (I don’t necessarily argue for Apple, I’m just saying that if I were their marketing guy, that’s what I’d do.) Plus don’t forget that Apple’s ethos is to have a closed ecosystem, not an open one (with Roon for example).

There’s very little upside for Apple with Roon integration.

So I stand by what I said: it AIN’T GONNA HAPPEN. I’ll promise to buy a hat, eat it and post a video of me doing so if the integration does happen.

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That is a good question and I also agree Roon could survive with Tidal and Qobuz but will Tidal and Qobuz survive?

I love Roon and what it does for my CD/download collection, but we are a niche. I am cancelling Tidal, it’s just not good enough for me and neither is Qobuz. Apple Music is better for me (and Spotify perhaps if it sorts out it’s lossy compression). I can’t be bothered with synchronising my favourites and library across platforms either plus I care about quality and Tidal is lacking.

Roon wont be quite as good without a Tidal plan but I can dip in and out of that for a £10er now and again if I miss it.

You are definitely a niche as you pay for all 4 of the streaming services. Most wouldn’t want to pay the premium. But good for you. I often find myself wanting them all too!!

I have to admit, I think you are most probably right. It’s highly unlikely that Apple Music will integrate with Roon or acquire Roon. You are definitely more likely to be right about this. Your argument is sound.

But I do think Apple will improve access to their lossless, spatial and high-res streaming. By improve I mean AirPlay or an AirPlay alternative or another piece of Apple hardware and that this may have a negative impact for Roon.

Roon isn’t helped by Tidal. I am tired of finding tracks in lossless HiFi (or MQA) that just don’t sound anywhere near as good as the exact same master on Apple Music. I lose faith with Tidal more and more.

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Yes, my hope as well. We’ll see.

Interesting. I don’t have Tidal, so can’t say. Do have Qobuz, but to be honest, don’t listen to it much, except to sample new recordings before I buy them. I mainly play my local library

What I have found is that Apple Music has a much better classical catalogue than Qobuz. The only service that I think bests Apple is Idagio–but they specialize in classical.

Interesting. Same for me, but with Tidal. I much prefer to buy what I really like and then have a local library I love to access either with Roon and/or Plexamp. The streaming integration is very nice to have for discovery but I also LOVE Radio Paradise for discovery and as I am increasingly disappointed with Tidal for quality I am ditching it. I just prefer to spend the money on CDs and feel that this supports artists a little more. Especially the ones I like.

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I did utilize Primephonic in parallel with ROON before it was acquired by Apple
The Primephonic approach for classical lovers is unique. It is like you get acces to a full enciclopedia of classical music, by period countries authors type of music and after you find the albums with what you look for
Neither Tidal nor Qobuz give such a tool.
If Apple have correctly kept Primephonic approach it will be a big threat to ROON if it is not possible to get Apple classical as a roon service

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