Nucleus+ move music to Internal SSD

David_Miles · August 29, 2018, 9:53am

My first post so I hope I am doing this right!

I have read all the online documentation and many, many forum posts but have not been able to find an answer to my question. So I am hoping that someone or @Support can help?

I have been using Roon for about 18 months now with the Roon Core on a Mac Mini and my music files on a Direct Attached Storage Raid Box attached to the mini. I use an iMac and iPad for remotes.

I have now invested in a Nucleus+ with a 2TB SSD. However, there was a delay in getting the SSD. So following the online documentation I have moved the Roon Core to the Nucleus+ and my music files to an external USD drive attached to the Nucleus+.

The SSD has now been installed and I have made backups to various places. I have copied the music files, in exactly the same folder structure, to the internal SSD.

However, when I restore the backup and then try to edit the storage path from the external USB drive to the internal SSD I am unable to see the “Nucleus+ Internal Storage” folder to select it. See the screen shot.

The only way I have been able to get the files onto the internal SSD is by adding a network path to the “Nucleus+ Internal Storage” folder. Once this is done, and if you look at the storage screen the “Nucleus+ Internal Storage” folder then shows as disabled.

So, with apologies for the long post, my question is, is this the expected behaviour? Does it have any implications in terms of performance or possible problems if the SSD has to be changed in the future?

Many thanks for your help.

David

Geoff_Coupe · August 29, 2018, 10:04am

Just flagging @support for you (you wrote it as @Support in your post - and these flags are case-sensitive).

Henry_McLeod · August 29, 2018, 10:54am

It is in the storage folder isn’t it?

David_Miles · August 29, 2018, 11:18am

Thanks, yes it is. I’m just not sure if using the network path rather than the direct folder, as shown in the second screenshot, might have any implications.

Mikael_Ollars · August 29, 2018, 11:59am

But, why have you disabled the default Music folder “Nucleus+ Internal Storage” in the second screenshot?
And, like Henry says, it is visible in the fisrt screenshot as well? (“Storage”)

dylan · August 29, 2018, 12:54pm

Thanks for reaching out, @David_Miles!

First, I just want to verify that you have a backup made from before you were trying to switch to the internal storage. If not, go ahead and make one now just so you have it.

In the last screenshot it shows that Nucleus+ Internal Storage is disabled. I would recommend first disabling the network folder that was added, and then enable the Nucleus+ Internal Storage folder. Once you do this are things looking as you’d expect?

Thanks!
Dylan

David_Miles · August 29, 2018, 2:05pm

Thank you for trying to help and I’m sorry if I have not explained this well and will try again.

I did not disable the default folder this is how it was shown after I restored my database backup.
The default folder is not shown in the first screenshot - what is shown is the network path I had to create to get any access to it.

According to the online documentation what should happen after you restore your backup is that you edit the previous storage path to the new path, i.e. the internal storage (the SSD in my case). However, when I do this I do not see the internal storage folder and, therefore, cannot select it to be used. This was why I created the network path to it.

David_Miles · August 29, 2018, 2:07pm

@dylan Thank you for your help.

Yes, I do have a backup as mentioned.

The Nucleus+ Internal Storage was marked as disabled once I restored the above backup. I should have mentioned, in my original post, that I had already tried the suggestion in your final paragraph. The problem with that is seems to have made quite a jumble of the albums.

For my files I use an Artist/Album/tracks structure for single artist/Groups studio albums and Compilation Name/tracks for various artist compilation type albums. If I use your suggestion it appears some albums are being split and some tracks on some studio albums had been replaced with ones from compilations albums. The audio analysis is also being completely redone.

It just seems strange that the internal storage SSD is not shown as an option when editing the previous locations path. As shown in the attached screenshot the only items shown are two backup destinations and my previous external USB music storage. No default storage folder is shown even though the web UI shows it is available.

I am happy to start over again with a fresh database and reimport my music if need be.

Thanks.

David

dylan · August 29, 2018, 3:29pm

Hey @David_Miles

Just to verify, did you first disable the other folder first? Or did you enable the internal storage while you also the other networked path enabled? If you have both enabled at the same time it will import the one you added second as new files, so it is important to first make sure the other is disabled.

Is this the same format that you had for your previous Core?

Thanks,
Dylan

David_Miles · August 29, 2018, 5:38pm

Hi @dylan

Thanks for getting back to me.

With regard to the music file structure, yes, it’s the same as on the old core.

Turning to the audio analysis I believe I disabled the network path before I enabled the internal storage. However, I have tried so many things and done so many restores over the last few days I may have messed up.

I think the best thing is for me to do this again from scratch. So I have:

Reset the database and formatted the internal SSD.
Started Roon and logged in to create clean install setting the Storage to my external USB Drive.
The files had finished importing and I have stopped the audio analysis.
Taken 2 backups of the database.
Disabled the External USB storage location.
Stopped Roon Server.
Started copying files from the external USB drive to Internal SSD.

There are 50k files to copy and as I am in the UK this will not complete until the middle of the night.

I will finish the process in the morning and then get back to you.

Thanks again for your help.

David

Geoff_Coupe · August 29, 2018, 6:22pm

Pardon me for jumping in, but I don’t think I would have done it this way.

Since you are starting from scratch, I would have:

Reset the database and formatted the internal SSD.
Stopped the Roon Server (via the web page).
Copied the music collection from the external Drive (connected to your Mac Mini) to the internal SSD via the network using Mac Finder (RoonOS is still running, so you can access the internal SSD over the network).
Started the Roon Server, and the import process would begin using the internal SSD as the default storage location.

Somewhat simpler, I think.

David_Miles · August 29, 2018, 8:52pm

Hi @Geoff_Coupe

Thanks for your help, however, I think I have caused a misunderstanding by my mention of “starting from scratch” to Dylan. I will try to explain in a better way but I am afraid it makes for a long read!

My reason for starting this topic was the fact that I was having a problem associating my music files, which were on an external USB drive directly connected to the Nucleus+, to the default internal folder on a new internal SSD.

I first made a backup of the database (with the music files on the USB drive) and then copied the files to the new internal SSD, using the Mac Finder. My problem arose when having restored that backup I tried to edit the storage path pointing to the external USB drive to the new internal SSD, as recommended in the online documentation, so as to keep all previous edits, tags, etc.

Having chosen ‘Edit’ from the 3 dot menu against the old storage path (the USB drive) and then selecting ‘Browse’ on the next screen the default internal storage was not shown, as you will see from this screenshot. Therefore, the only choice I had was to create a network path pointing to the internal SSD. This worked and the files were restored.

Once the files had restored the Storage section of Settings shows the default internal folder, which was marked ‘Disabled’, as well as the network path I had created, as shown in this screenshot.

Now, obviously, these both point to the same files but I was concerned that not being able to use the default non network path folder might have some detriment on performance or cause problems in the future.

What I meant by my reference to “starting from scratch” to Dylan was that I was going to return things to how they were prior to the installation of the internal SSD. Then I would try, as suggested by Dylan, to disable the network path to the internal SSD and enable the default folder. I think this is what I did before I started the topic and it rather jumbled up my albums. As I mentioned in my last message to Dylan I should be able to do this in the morning once all the files have been copied to the SSD.

Thanks again for your interest in helping me with this problem.

David

David_Miles · August 30, 2018, 7:32am

@dylan following on from my last message to you yesterday this is what I have done this morning:

Music file copying to internal SSD completed overnight.
Restarted Roon Server.
Started Roon on iMac. As expected no albums were shown.
Went to Settings -> Storage and both the Nucleus+ Internal Storage and WD USB drive attached to Nucleus+ show as disabled. See screenshot.

Restored backup from a USB Stick attached to Nucleus+.
On relaunch at the end of the restore Roon immediately began displaying albums. So I quickly went to Settings -> Storage and disabled the path to the external WD USB Drive which was being scanned.
I noticed from Settings -> Library -> Library Maintenance that the third item showed "52,316 files that are associated with disable storage locations.

So I now have two choices:

As suggested by the online documentation, edit the path pointing to the external WD USB Drive so it points to the nucleus+ Internal Storage.

or

Just enable the path pointing to the Nucleus+ Internal Storage.

So trying 1. above, again as originally reported, the Nucleus+ Internal Storage does not appear as an option to select. See screenshot. So I back out back to Settings -> Storage.

Now when I opened this topic I mentioned that as the Nucleus+ Internal Storage was not available I created a network path to it and used that. I did not do that this time.

So I now tried 2. above which is what I believe you were suggesting.

I enable the path next to Nucleus+ Internal Storage. It immediately started “Importing” tracks slowly which took about 13 minutes for the 50k+ tracks.

On completion of the import I noticed that the “Audio Analysis” was turned off, which I did yesterday after the unsuccessful import and forgot to turn it back on. When I did turn it on it started to reanalyse all of the tracks.

This import, on first impression, does appear to be much better than the last attempt as the albums do not appear to be jumbled up as before.

It looks like this is the best way to get the restored database and music files into the Nucleus+. If you agree I do think the online documentation may need revising as I think I have proved that you cannot edit a previous storage path to point it to the Nucleus+ Internal Storage.

So I think I will now go back to where I was before the Nucleus+ arrived and do the whole transfer of the Roon Core, database and the Music files to the Nucleus+ again. This may have to wait until next week but I will start a fresh topic if I have any problems.

I would again like to thank you, and the other forum members, for your kind help with this matter.

David

Geoff_Coupe · August 30, 2018, 7:58am

David, thanks for your reply to my suggestion. I had indeed mis-interpreted what you meant by “starting from scratch”.

There is something odd about your setup. I don’t think that you should be seeing that “Disabled” message for your internal storage. And if I look at the screenshot of the Roon web page in message #8 of this thread, it states that your SSD has 100% available - i.e. it’s not registering the fact that you have music files present. I believe that RoonOS should be recognising that there is some percentage of the SSD being used by files (it certainly does on my system).

The Nucleus+ Internal Storage does not appear as an option to select in the “Choose Music Storage Folder” screen - this is expected behaviour, AFAIK. I see the same on my ROCK + NUC system - only external USB drives or networked storage show up here.

As I say, something odd about your internal storage, I think. @dylan - what say you?

David_Miles · August 30, 2018, 8:53am

Geoff, I’m not sure if you have seen my message to Dylan this morning but he does seemed to have pointed me to a way to get my music files on the internal SSD without using a network path. As mentioned in that message I will now go through the whole process of transferring everything from my Mac Mini to the Nucleus+ from the beginning and see what transpires.

I think the screenshot of the Nucleus+ web page showing the SSD as having 100% available is a red herring. I, obviously, took it at one of the many times I had just formatted the SSD to try various things. It normally shows the correct figures so I don’t think there is any problem with this. Sorry to cause more confusion!

I note that you think that the Nucleus+ Internal Storage not appearing as an option to select in the “Choose Music Storage Folder” screen is the norm. That is fine but I think the online documentation should reflect that as the suggestion to edit the previous storage path cant be used.

Thanks again for your help.

David

Mikael_Ollars · August 30, 2018, 10:36am

All good, we hope!
I have read somewhere that when you perform relocation of your library files (or restore a backup from a differently configured Roon Core) then the files are whats stored in the library, not the path.
So the Audio Analysis will seem to be working for a while, but its not performing full analysis of your files, just identifying them and trying to match them with their representation in your library DB.

David_Miles · August 30, 2018, 3:21pm

@Mikael_Ollars, Thank you for this information. As you may have seen from my earlier posts today, I am going to go back to my pre Nucleus+ setup and then try the migration again. Taking into account what I have learned here it will, hopefully, work out this time.

simply · August 30, 2018, 5:47pm

Hello and congratulations to the nucleus +. I also consider buying this.

Is it possible to describe the sonic gain from the iMac to the nucleus +?

thank you in advance
simply

dylan · August 30, 2018, 7:21pm

Hey @David_Miles,

These were the correct steps here (i.e. disabling the network drive, enabling the Internal Storage folder). Once you’ve done that Roon should match up the files on the internal storage to the 52,316 files that are associated with disable storage locations.

Also, just to clarify, it is expected that you cannot select the Internal Storage folder from the Choose Music Storage Folder window. I’ll make sure we make this more clear in our documentation.

Thanks,
Dylan

David_Miles · August 30, 2018, 7:27pm

Hi @simply I’m afraid I don’t feel able to comment on the difference in SQ, if any, between my Nucleus+ and the Mac Mini for the following reasons:

The Nucleus+ was purchased at the same time as other significant upgrades to my system. I purchased a new set of much better speakers as well as speaker cables. So whilst the whole upgrade has given a vast improvement in SQ I could not attribute a particular amount of improvement to the Nucleus+ specifically.
Both the Nucleus+ and the previous Mac Mini feed my Naim Uniti Nova, which is a Roon Ready one box streamer/amplifier system, via the RAAT protocol. Whilst a lot of users would have these linked to an external USB DAC feeding their amplification.

I may be wrong but I don’t believe Roon claim any SQ improvement for the Nucleus+. I believe it is meant mainly as a dealer supported one box server solution for those who don’t want to build there own NUC’s.

Have you had a look at the messages relating to Nucleus in the Roon Software section of the forum? You will see a tag for Nucleus which if you click on will filter just those messages. There are a number which discuss SQ.

I hope this helps.