Nucleus+ Multichannel DSD with Denon or Marantz AVR

Thanks for your reply, Mike. I remember reading about your dream multichannel DAC. :slight_smile:
I will need to wait until my Oppo dies to justify getting a new DAC, but I am taking this chance to perhaps upgrade my AVR and should start a new thread on that.

Think about, if you really need multichannel DSD transfer native to your AVR.
If you’re using a DSP (for example for bassmanagement) in your AVR, then here all DSD content will reencoded to PCM and so it will be easier to send PCM to the AVR.
I don’t see, that reencoding from DSD64 to PCM needs a lot of power (other case is PCM → DSD512).

Thanks, Burkhardt!

So let me add to what I had above:

Mch DSD/DSF files via HDMI (converted to PCM in Roon):
Nucleus+ to AVR = YES
Nucleus+ to UDP-205 to AVR = YES

Is this accurate?

Yes, That appears to be accurate.

Mike, before you got the exaSound S88, were you able to get DSD multichannel files from your Nucleus to your AVR via the analog outs on the Oppo? I ask because the lowest tier Marantz with multichannel analog inputs is $500 more than the highest tier without them (SR7013 vs SR1505). If it doesn’t really work, then the multichannel Oppo/Nucleus/DSD journey is basically a nonstarter and would really only be applicable with physical SACDs.

No I could not get DSD Multi-channel from the NUC to the OPPO. Only MC was via HDMI but PCM only. I could play DSD from NUC to OPPO via USB but that was 2 CH only and required the 7.1 analog connections.

The OPPO playing SACD’s sounds much better, to me, using the 7.1 analog connections, because the OPPO DAC is doing the D/A processing.

With the OPPO playing SACD’s via HDMI to the receiver the receiver dac is doing the D/A processing.

The OPPO will only use it’s high end D/A processor with the 7.1 analog connections.

Whatever AVR you get will need the 7.1 inputs to make use of the OPPO DAC, and the 7.1 inputs will also be required if you plan to go with a MC dac in the future.

FWIW, I could get multichannel DSD from my server to my OPPO and out via HDMI (or analog) to my Marantz prepro in DSD but only via LAN (from the server) and not with Roon.

@TuliaNonTroppo – the way this has worked for me is via JRiver (running on Win10 laptop; also worked on Mac, but it was flaky) → DLNA → Oppo (also to a SONY SACD player) → HDMI → Marantz prepro. The prepro then indicated it was receiving DSD (I think it had to be in pure direct). Connecting the Oppo to the Marantz analog 7.1 CH IN also worked.

But I didn’t pursue this because I didn’t want to deal with running both Roon and JRiver (and I much preferred Roon).

My experience with NUC + ROCK → HDMI → Marantz has been the same as what others indicate: Roon converts DSD to PCM.

If you run your Roon Core on a computer that can also run JRiver stably, you could consider running both off of the same music files, and then you could play your DSD files in pure DSD via JRiver or in PCM via Roon, as the mood took you. (With the various consequences of not having all your music listening occurring in Roon, of course).

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For the MC DSD DAC feeding an AVR : the AVR would digitise analogue inputs (likely to PCM48kHz) to be able to do digital vol control right?

Which MC DSD DAC and which AVR are you using?

Digital volume control doesn’t mean, that you need a digital input. Most better and newer analogue amps are using a digital control…

But: Most users of AVRs are using a bassmanagement or should use it, because they don’t have full range speakers and they don’t sit in the centre of they speakers.
Then it’s really better to use PCM and not DSD…

You are talking about something different here. Have another look at what I wrote and the context of my reply.

Most (all?) AVRs (AV Receivers) are using digital volume control. To do this, they would need to digitise the analogue input of the AVR…

I’ve yet to see an AVR (say in the past 10 years) where volume control is done purely in the analogue domain.

If the analogue inputs of the AVR are digitised (to PCM48kHz for example) then adding a box (a DSD D-to-A converter) in between NUC and AVR might be a pointless exercise…

I’ve read your posting and I mean, that you are wrong.
Really old AVRs are having mostly volume control in the digital area, newer ones almost not.
For example myXMC-1 controls the volume after the DAC has converted to analogue and an analogue signal will not touched, if you don’t use a DSP.
Nevertheless the volume will controlled digital (no analogue poti) for better synchronism and this the standard for the most pres.

That’s very nice actually. But this is not common, if we consider Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer, Onkyo AVRs more common than what your processor has below:

Well this is exactly what I said so not sure how I could be wrong on this.

I’m not sure you followed the context correctly.

The context of the discussion was about adding a DSD DAC in between NUC and AVR… Your Emotiva is an exception, not “common”…

sorry, but take a look into this or other threads about multichannel DSD…

no, your arguments are, that all AVR will convert all analogue signals to a digital one for the volume control…

no, this is the standard for the most current (the XMC-1 is not a really new one and also my former TagMclaren has done it in the same way) AVRs and AVPres. For twenty years ago, you’ll be right…

No, I wrote “most”… Thread title mentions Denon and Marantz… Along with Yamaha, Pioneer and Onkyo, these brands cover “most” when it comes to AVRs…

Let’s pick an AVR significanty more common than your XMC-1 like a Denon AVC-3700H/AVR-3700H …

Can you show me technical evidence that volume control is done in the analogue domain?

The receiver is a Denon AVR-X8500H 13.2 channel. I haven’t given much thought to the volume control or how it works. Recall reading somewhere about the negative numbering expressed as Attenuation. Amps at 0 are full volume, output is suppressed, corked or throttled below 0 and boosted above. So as the volume level goes up the negative scale attenuation is being removed. Or uncorking the genie. However that is done, I doubt it’s doing any conversion to the analog signal.

The DAC is an exaSound S88 8 channel. It also has a volume control, but without any amps the above comments would not apply. Have no idea how it works.

How it is done will exactly determine if your DSD output from exaSound is being converted to PCM by your Denon (or not)…

Are you using Audyssey for room correction with your multichannel DSD @Mike_LC ?

Very nice DAC and AVR by the way.

My Marantz 7015 do not convert the exasound DSD >(stereo & multichannel). Therefore we have invest in this nice DAC, that we have native DSD output direktly to the amp and no DSP with the analog multichannel input in the avr.

It doesn’t matter if the source is DSD or PCM, if you are feeding analog input to most modern AVR/prepros with 7.1 analog inputs, there is no A-D conversion and volume is modulated in the analog domain.

The volume control is done in the DAC chip, itself.

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Can you share technical evidence of this?

Picking any of the current AVRs by Denon, Marantz that feature ‘EXT IN’ or “7.1 CH IN”?