Playback dropouts with Tangerine Dream album and missing FM4 radio station (ref#YK458H)

[jost_bornmann]

What’s happening?

· I am experiencing freezes or crashes

How can we help?

· None of the above

Other options

· Other

Describe the issue

Hello, I have a Roon test account and have encountered 2 problems so far:

1. When playing the Tangerine Dream album “Pergamon (Live)” via Tidal, both tracks briefly dropped out.

2. I can’t find the Austrian radio station FM4 on Live Radio, even if I enter the URL for the live player (https://fm4.orf.at/player/) or the TunIn path.

I also miss the option of being able to integrate Apple Podcasts into Roon.

Technical information:
Roon core: Mac mini M4 via LAN to Internet router fritz!box 7490
Streaming bridge: iFi Zen Stream (Roon Ready), digital output: S/PDIF
Preamp/DAC: Krell Showcase

Describe your network setup

Roon core: Mac mini M4 via LAN to Internet router fritz!box 7490 with 50 MBit/s DSL
Streaming bridge: iFi Zen Stream (Roon Ready), digital output: S/PDIF
Preamp/DAC: Krell Showcase

[daniel]

Hi @jost_bornmann,
Thanks for reaching out to us to ask about this issue. I think the next step here is to enable some diagnostics on your account so our technical staff can get some more insight into what’s going on here.

However, before I enable this feature, I’d like to ask for your help ensuring we gather the right information.

First, can you please reproduce the issue once more and note the time at which the error occurs. Then respond here with that time, and I’ll make sure we review the diagnostics related to that timestamp.

[jost_bornmann]

Hi Daniel, thank you very much for the information and for taking care. Yesterday evening, there were 4 interruptions while streaming music at 00:13, 00:48, 01:13 and 01:33. I immediately took a screenshot of the Roon app.
There is also a problem installing an update on the Roon server. Despite restarting the Roon software and the server computer (Mac mini M4) several times, the installation on the iPad and on the Roon core aborts immediately with an error message. I also took a screenshot of this (see attachments).

[connor]

Hi @jost_bornmann,

Thank you for your post. We’d be happy to extend your Roon trial if required since you’ve spent time troubleshooting. Let us know if you need an additional two weeks and we can loop in our accounts team.

@jost_bornmann

1. When playing the Tangerine Dream album “Pergamon (Live)” via Tidal, both tracks briefly dropped out.

Diagnostics indicate two issues occurring. In the simpler cases, certain tracks are returning from Tidal’s API as only available in a tier above that of your subscription account. Please navigate to Settings → Services in Tidal and verify that your account tier matches that in the Tidal account page - you may need to log out/back in from Tidal in Roon if you’ve recently upgraded your Tidal account to a higher subscription.

The more common errors relate to timeouts with large files at 24-bit and 96KHz or above. In these cases, RoonServer can’t buffer the file in time for the audio stream on the iFi endpoint to stay alive - as a consequence, the audio stream drops out while it waits for the accumulated packets to arrive.

Do you have any mesh nodes or managed switches in between your Fritz!Box and the RoonServer M4? Bandwidth allocation and packet scheduling can sometimes cause packets to be delayed inadvertently en route to an endpoint, but these usually take place in a second router or managed switch somewhere.

In the main Fritz!Box settings, verify that a reliable DNS server like Cloudlfare (1.1.1.1) is assigned. This will help resolve Tidal’s API.

@jost_bornmann

2. I can’t find the Austrian radio station FM4 on Live Radio, even if I enter the URL for the live player (ORF-Radiothek) or the TunIn path.

You can request that the curators add a station to the directory by creating a new post in Live Radio - Roon Labs Community, like this one: Please Add Station - WKNC Raleigh - #3 by Will_Butler

We’ll watch for your response! Thank you for your patience!

[jost_bornmann]

Hi Connor,

Thank you very much for your support and the suggested solutions, all of which I implemented one after the other.

Diagnostics indicate two issues occurring. In the simpler cases, certain tracks are returning from Tidal’s API as only available in a tier above that of your subscription account. Please navigate to Settings → Services in Tidal and verify that your account tier matches that in the Tidal account page - you may need to log out/back in from Tidal in Roon if you’ve recently upgraded your Tidal account to a higher subscription.
→ Done

The more common errors relate to timeouts with large files at 24-bit and 96KHz or above. In these cases, RoonServer can’t buffer the file in time for the audio stream on the iFi endpoint to stay alive - as a consequence, the audio stream drops out while it waits for the accumulated packets to arrive.
→ The error occurred with 16-bit 44.1KHz files and has nothing to do with the size of the files

Do you have any mesh nodes or managed switches in between your Fritz!Box and the RoonServer M4? Bandwidth allocation and packet scheduling can sometimes cause packets to be delayed inadvertently en route to an endpoint, but these usually take place in a second router or managed switch somewhere.
→ I assigned real-time prioritization to all devices in the chain (Mac mini M4, Fritz Repeater 2400, iFi Bridge and iPad Pro in the FritzBox router.

In the main Fritz!Box settings, verify that a reliable DNS server like Cloudlfare (1.1.1.1) is assigned. This will help resolve Tidal’s API.
→ Done

In addition, in the iFi Bridge, in the playback settings, I increased the size of the audio buffer (default: 32MB) to 64MB and also reduced it to 2MB and at the same time increased the value for the buffer before playback (default: 30%) to 50% and also reduced it to 10%.
Question: Are there any recommended settings for the iFi Bridge in conjunction with Roon?

Conclusion: Unfortunately, all measures had no effect on the dropout problem. For me, the dropouts seem to have a systematic cause, as they do not only occur during long periods of time. tracks but generally every 15-16 minutes.
For this reason, I will abort the Roon test for now and not buy Roon for the time being. As a last resort, I will lay a LAN cable from the Frizubox router to the Fritz repeater and then try another test. Once the problem is solved, I will happily purchase the lifetime Roon license.
Do you have any other idea what could be causing the problem of periodic dropouts?

I thank you for your support and remain with kind regards,
Jost

[connor]

Hi @jost_bornmann,

Thank you for providing such a thorough update. We’ve pulled diagnostics for the period during which you performed tests. Here’s what we’ve found:

1. The iFi streamer is disconnecting from Roon - this is not a factor that we saw in previous logs, so we have to conclude that the Real-Time Prioritization might be intefering with device announcements. These connections dropouts break playback during track transitions, but do not interrupt audio. Try disabling RTP again in the Fritz!Box settings at your convenience.

2. The are 401, subcode 4005 - this means an asset is not ready for playback on the Tidal API side despite being exposed to Roon.

In most cases, this means an object in a playlist (not an album) is no longer available to Tidal from the distributor, but the changes to their library haven’t filtered to the UI. In other cases, it’s a generic error referring to backend server issues with Tidal.

To test this mechanism, we’d like to know the following:

When you encounter a dropout, what happens if you queue the same track again for playback? Does it fail the second time?

@jost_bornmann

→ I assigned real-time prioritization to all devices in the chain (Mac mini M4, Fritz Repeater 2400, iFi Bridge and iPad Pro in the FritzBox router.

The most expedient test here would be to disable the real-time prioritization rules across the chain once again and then (if possible) bypass the repeater entirely.

Forgive me if we’ve already clarified this point, but are you relying on WiFi for any stage between the main router, the Mac Mini, and the iFi Zen? Hardwire everything with ethernet, if so, or at least try to restrict the repeater and the router to either the 2.4 or the 5.0 WiFi band.

Thank you for your patience. We’ll watch for your response.

[jost_bornmann]

Hi Connor,

Thank you for your patience and efforts. I hope that the error has a simpler cause: the double connection of my Mac mini M4 via LAN and WLAN to the FritzBox.

I carried out another test in which I connected the FritzBox router to the Fritz repeater via LAN cable and then monitored the mesh during Tidal streaming. When the dropouts occurred again, I could see that the Mac mini’s WLAN connection jumped from the FritzBox to the repeater at the same time and back again at the next dropout.

I then deactivated the Mac mini’s WLAN connection and the error no longer occurred during a first short test afterwards. Unfortunately, my Roon test phase ended immediately after this, so I could no longer verify the new configuration. Do you also think this is a likely cause?

For the rest of the weekend I streamed in the old configuration without Roon with the ifi bridge and Tidal direct and, just like before the Roon test phase, didn’t have a single dropout. So I’m pretty sure there’s no fundamental problem with the Tidal app or my WiFi connections.

As I mentioned, I really liked the Roon software and it also cuts a little finer and more precisely than the stream via Tidal direct. Would it be possible to get another Roon test week so I can be sure that the dropouts don’t occur again when WiFi is disabled on the Mac mini?

Best regards from Hamburg
Jost

[daniel]

Hi @jost_bornmann,
Thanks for doing all of that testing. Since your trial period elapsed before you were able to fully test I’ve asked our accounts team to get into contact with you about this. Once you’ve been contacted by them please finish out the testing and let us know if it is working.

[jost_bornmann]

Hi Connor,
Thank you for arranging another test phase. I’ve tried a lot over the last 5 days and gained further insights.

1. Connecting the Mac mini M4 via LAN and Wi-Fi was unfortunately not the cause of the problem: It’s noticeable that the short dropouts still occur periodically and regularly after 15 minutes of streaming, not when changing tracks, but during the current track. Playback then starts immediately at the same point.

2. The dropouts affect not only streaming Tidal but also streaming albums from the Roon library on the MacHD, so the cause isn’t a problem with the Tidal API or the internet connection.

3. I also connected the iFi Streaming Bridge to the FritzBox router via LAN and disabled the Wi-Fi connection so that there was no Wi-Fi connection in the chain. This also had no effect on the error: the dropouts still occur after 15 minutes of streaming.

4. Resetting real-time prioritization also had no effect on the dropouts.

5. I took some screenshots of the Mac mini’s settings: During the tests, only the Roon server and Roon app were active, power saving mode was turned off, and sleep mode was also suppressed.

I hope this new information helps you troubleshoot the problem. I still have hope that the problem can be solved.

Best regards,
Jost

[connor]

Hi @jost_bornmann,

Thank you for your patience.

There aren’t sample dropouts in the most recent logset. What we see are 404 responses to certain servers, and cyclical network resets after a certain interval of time, sometimes severing RoonServer’s connection to the RAATServer instance on the same network.

When the latter occurs, these devices need to reannounce themselves to RoonServer and initiate a new handshake.

If you don’t have any stateful security features (antivirus, third-party firewalls, etc) that would be restricting RoonServer’s connection, then test playback directly to the System Output of the Mac with Tidal files.

I’d make sure any multicast forwarding settings are enabled in the repeater, or test with it bypassed entirely, playing directly to the network streamer (if possible).

What error messages are displayed in the Roon UI at this point when you encounter dropouts?

[jost_bornmann]

Hi Connor,

Thank you for the analysis and suggested solutions. I tried the following but unfortunately didn’t have any success:

→ If you’re not using stateful security features (antivirus, third-party firewalls, etc.) that restrict the RoonServer connection, try playing Tidal files directly on the Mac’s system output.

Enabling System Output on the Mac mini initially causes the stream to be output to the Mac speakers via the Mac OS mixer. In the Mac System Preferences, the stream can only be forwarded to the iFi Zen Stream Bridge (RoonReady) via AirPlay. Therefore, I tried grouping System Output with the iFi Bridge in two ways in the Roon Audio settings, but this had no effect on the periodic dropouts. Disabling the firewall also had no effect; network access to the Roon instances is explicitly allowed in the firewall settings.

→ What error messages are displayed in the Roon user interface when outages occur?

There are no error messages in the Roon user interface during the short outages. I’ve only seen periodic error messages in the Mayc logs of the Roon Server application (see screenshot), but I don’t know if they’re related to the problem.

Add images

Since I’m slowly running out of ideas, my last resort would be to completely reset the Mac mini to factory settings and reinstall Roon. Do you think that makes sense, or do you have another idea?

Best regards,
Jost

[Suedkiez (Just a fellow user like you)]

@jost_bornmann

2. I can’t find the Austrian radio station FM4 on Live Radio, even if I enter the URL for the live player (ORF-Radiothek) or the TunIn path.

FM4 is available by default in Roon. You could try to use the global search (the magnifying glass top right), enter FM4 and press Enter for the full search results. Then scroll to the bottom of the results page. However, the number of displayed results is limited and FM4 is probably not an uncommon name, so it’s possible that it doesn’t get listed.

In this case, go to the side bar in Roon > Live Radio > Location > Austria, you will find it there. Add it to your library and then it will be easily accessible in My Live Radio

[benjamin]

Hi @jost_bornmann,

For the error you’ve shared above:

Open Terminal.app on your mac
Type the following commands and hit enter after each command:

• cd /tmp
• sudo chown $(whoami) /tmp
  You may be asked to enter your Mac password after that last command.

Let me know if that helps

@Suedkiez

FM4 is available by default in Roon. You could try to use the global search (the magnifying glass top right), enter FM4 and press Enter for the full search results. Then scroll to the bottom of the results page. However, the number of displayed results is limited and FM4 is probably not an uncommon name, so it’s possible that it doesn’t get listed.

In this case, go to the side bar in Roon > Live Radio > Location > Austria, you will find it there. Add it to your library and then it will be easily accessible in My Live Radio

Was @Suedkiez above reply helpful as well? I was able to find FM4 under search> live radio results.

[jost_bornmann]

Was @Suedkiez above reply helpful as well? I was able to find FM4 under search> live radio results.
→ Yes, I found the Radio Station FM4 and Other

[noris]

Hi @jost_bornmann ,

@jost_bornmann

Since I’m slowly running out of ideas, my last resort would be to completely reset the Mac mini to factory settings and reinstall Roon. Do you think that makes sense, or do you have another idea?

Yes, reinstalling Roon on the Mac sounds like it could be a good test. To do so:

• Create a Backup of your current database
• Exit out of Roon + RoonServer (from taskbar area)
• Navigate to your Roon Database Location
• Find the folder that says “Roon Server” and “Roon”
• Rename the “RoonServer” folder to “RoonServer_old” and “Roon” to “Roon_old”
• Reinstall the Roon App from our Downloads Page to generate a new Roon folder
• Verify if the issue persists on a fresh database before restoring the backup

Here is the process outlined from a macOS machine:

Let us know if this helps!