Roon hang on Windows 10

Hi @Sevenfeet,

The logs you sent me suggest that the Windows partition is not acting as the Core, but rather as a Roon client that connects to the Core. My suggestion is to reinstall the Roon app that’s acting as the Client on the bootcamp partition.

Roon is installed in the same directory as a usual Core even if it’s only in client mode, so I suggest you open up Windows Explorer (the folder-looking app you usually use to navigate to C: or D:), type in %localappdata% into the header bar, locate the Roon folder and rename to Roon_old and reinstall the client app.

OK, I ripped out Roon client from the Windows 10 client machine including the Roon and RaatServer folders in %localapdata%. I uninstalled Roon and reinstalled the 537 build. The result was the same although I did see the first screens to accept the app and connect to the Roon Core. Then we saw the pink Tidal connection issue, and finally the lockup. I’ve included a new video. Everything this time is labeled 537. And I also included the RoonServer logs this time, as well as the client logs.

Hi @Sevenfeet,

Thanks for giving the reinstall a try. I’m not seeing anything jump out to me in the logs, so it looks like this is one for QA review. I have created a ticket for you for QA review and once it reached the queue, I will let you know what QA suggests. Thanks for your patience while this reaches the top of their queue!

Thank you. Let me know if there is any more I can contribute on my end.

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Hi @Sevenfeet,

I spoke to QA regarding your case and there doesn’t look to be much information in the Roon logs. Could you please try accessing your Windows Event Viewer logs and send me an archive of this?

  1. Press Win + R and type eventvwr.msc
  2. Press OK – this should open Event Viewer window
  3. From the left sidebar go to Windows Logs > Application
  4. Right click on the Application subsection and pick Filter Current Log... from the context menu
  5. On the Filter tab for the Logged section pick a parameter Last 30 days and press OK
  6. Right click on the Application subsection again and pick Save filtered log file as.. from the context menu
  7. Enter the log file name, for e.g. Roon_USERNAME , and press Save
  8. Upload this file to Dropbox and post a link

OK, the event log file is named “ROON_SEVENFEET.evtx”. I ran Roon twice before generated the log, one at 9:11 AM and the other at 9:20 AM today. Both events should be front and center. I checked the security and maintenance control panel as Windows suggested. No events there.

Hi @Sevenfeet,

Thanks for sending those logs over. I am looking through the Application Hang report and it looks like there are a few files which might provide some more details, can you please see if you are able to locate these on your PC and send them over?


C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER4A67.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER4A97.tmp.xml
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER4AA5.tmp.csv
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER4B04.tmp.txt
C:\Users\Rick Ewing\AppData\Local\Temp\WER540E.tmp.appcompat.txt

&
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER6FA3.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER6FD3.tmp.xml
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER6FE1.tmp.csv
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER7030.tmp.txt
C:\Users\Rick Ewing\AppData\Local\Temp\WER7AEF.tmp.appcompat.txt

I also have a few other ideas other than just these files:

  1. Have you confirmed that you have the latest version of .NET framework installed?
    https://dotnet.microsoft.com/download/dotnet-framework/thank-you/net48-web-installer

  2. Reading other forums seems to indicate that the 101 application hang might be related to a corrupted Windows profile. If you try to create a new user profile in Windows, does that stop the hangs?

Noris,

None of the files you asked for exist on the system in question. In fact, the C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp folder is completely empty. I compared it to another ancient Mac (2008 iMac) I use as a Roon kiosk (also running Windows 10). I couldn’t find any of those files on that machine either and that machine runs Roon without problems.

As to your other questions, I am running the latest version of .NET. The installer that you pointed to in the link said so and I regularly take the latest Windows 10 updates for these machines (they should be fully patched right now).

I did try creating a new user on the affected system to see if something was corrupt with the main user. I had to reinstall Roon since the installation seems to be user specific and not applicable to all users. Roon froze on that user as well, in the same spot while trying to display album artwork.

Hi @Sevenfeet,

Thanks for checking the .NET version and the new user. I spoke with the QA team today regarding your case, and they believe that this issue could very likely be due to this PC not meeting our Minimum Requirements.

Unfortunately, not much more can be done here to use the Roon interface. However, if you just wish to use this PC for the devices connected to it, you can opt to use RoonBridge instead, and that should allow access to your connected devices from the Core and other Roon remotes.

Noris,

This is a lousy suggestion. First, the minimum requirements page is a link to a support article that pretty much says that Roon will run on anything with a minimum of Open GL 3.0 and 4 gigs of RAM. Everything else is going to be a consideration on how much performance you want or lack of performance you are willing to tolerate. Sure, recommended requirements are an Intel i3, SSD and at least a 1440p display, but I have two other elderly Macs in my house older than this one running Roon client happily. Why did I choose them? Because they were available (no cost to me) and could be coaxed to either run Windows 10 or Catalina. Their role is pretty simple…a music kiosk. It doesn’t take a lot of horsepower to do that.

The Roon client doesn’t require the horsepower of my Mac Pro server to handle my library and even that machine is more than a decade old (but still with 8 Xeon cores and 16 GB of RAM). Would all of them run better on modern hardware? Sure! My main server is long due for an upgrade but I put that off with the impending recession. But they still all should run given their resources and up until recently, all of them have. And of course, this machine still runs Roon happily on Mac OS. I’d do that except for the restrictions of DSD music on than OS.

I was going to try to install an older copy of Roon from last year to see if I can at least get past the problem I’ve been seeing. That would likely eliminate Windows 10 as a possibility. I had intended on rebuilding the machine anyway since I wanted to replace the old HDD with an SSD and it should arrive this weekend. But I would really appreciate it if you guys wouldn’t abandon the ticket and just recommend running the Roon Bridge. Yes I could do that, but part of the point of running the Roon client on this machine is that it’s hooked up to the 65" TV in my home theater. So anyone walking into the room would see what was being listened to, including lyrics or anything else.

Can you try with another default browser for your Windows 10 installation on MacOS or have already tried that?

Thanks for the tip. Edge was the default browser, but changing to Chrome (which was also on the machine) had no effect to Roon freezing when trying to display album artwork. I tried to install an old version of Roon but forgot that Roon is setup in my network to force upgrades so I ended up back on the latest version, which ended up freezing again.

So I’m back to where I began. RoonBridge does work since it doesn’t rely on an interface. But the interface was kinda the point, especially on this machine in my house.

Hi @Sevenfeet,

@noris brought this issue to my attention and I wanted to clarify some things for you here.

To elaborate a bit on the issue, it appears that this device is running on older GPU that has drivers that have bugs in their Open GL implementation. We’ve seen this with a small number similar devices that are also older exhibit some similar issues, but the vast majority of devices that properly support OpenGL 3.0 are not exhibiting any issues.

Roon uses Open GL for it’s UI (which is similar to a video game engine) and, while we’ve confirmed that our implementations are correct for devices that properly support Open GL, some GPU models are not supporting this properly and it’s resulting in issues. We’ve made a number of improvements to our UI rendering recently and we’ve confirmed with our development team that these changes all comply with proper OpenGL standards and that devices that properly support OpenGL are functioning properly.

Unfortunately, as we continue to make improvements to Roon’s graphical capabilities, devices that are not properly supporting the OpenGL features we are using will not be able to be used.

You have our apologies for the trouble here, Richard. If you have any questions please do feel free to reach out.

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@noris

Thank you for the further elaboration. And yes, this makes more sense. Even though Microsoft continues to update Windows 10, Nvidia hasn’t updated these drivers for this specific graphics chip since 2016 which means they are unlikely to open the code base again. It’s also not possible to install the latest drivers for any chipset since Nvidia’s installers won’t do this. Again, we don’t know for sure if OpenGL bugs are at the root of this, but considering what evidence we do have, it’s certainly possible. And if you run MacOS, this problem doesn’t happen.

So now I have a decision to make. I use this 2010 Mac Mini as an inexpensive Roon client serving an Oppo 205 endpoint. I already know that the hard drive is beginning to die since it’s reporting some S.M.A.R.T. errors. I was going to replace it with an small flash drive and keep this machine going as is. But if I cannot run Windows on it with Roon Client, I’ll be forced to use RoonBridge which is ok I guess, but I lose a major feature of seeing Roon content on the big screen of my home theater.

The other possibility is to use other hardware to solve the problem. A Raspberry Pi running RoPieee is a possibility but I would still have to replace the Mac Mini’s hard drive at some point even running MacOS for a display. I could replace the Mac Mini with another, less old one. But Mac Minis keep their resale value pretty well and despite the fact that there are a lot of 2014 vintage machines on the used market, I’m hesitant to spend $300+ to solve this problem.

RoPieee does run on a Pi2 and I have one of those. I can pull it from it’s current duty and see if it’s powerful enough to try it in this format before buying a Pi4.

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What might be an alternative is to use the Web Controller Extension to display to your big screen?

Hi @Sevenfeet,

If you’re just looking for a solution to display Ron on your big screen TV, there are other options out there, see: https://kb.roonlabs.com/Displays

You could use a Chromecast for example as the display output and then just keep RoonBridge for any devices connected to the previous bootcamp Mac and have Roon controlled from another working Roon Remote.

It does sound like you have an idea of where to go next though, so ultimately you can decide what works best for your setup here, but the Chromecast would be an affordable solution to consider.

@Noris,

Thanks for the tips. I think I’ll stick with wanting to run an actual Roon client since one of the things I did have setup was the ability to play multichannel recordings in my library through Roon. In this case, the Mac Mini (running either MacOS or Windows Bootcamp) can do multichannel HDMI to my Marantz 7703 pre/pro and this has always worked very well.

I did get my Raspberry Pi 2 out of the basement where it had been doing Pi-hole duty to see if it could cut it on RoPieeeXL duty (I run HQPlayer as well). And to my surprise, it seems to work pretty nicely as a Roon Endpoint. I was concerned about HQPlayer NAA since I’d seen chatter on Audiophilestyle.com saying you really needed a faster Pi but so far, it seems to be ok (I’m using wired Ethernet so maybe that’s helping). I still haven’t tried all of my Hi-Res music through it, but if this stability keeps up, I may not have to buy a Pi4 at all for this exercise and I am running Pi-Hole off an ancient (overclocked) Pi1 with success. I was initially confused by RoPieee’s setup which in the end doesn’t have an GUI or text interface at all through HDMI except for the boot screens.

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An epilogue…

On the good front, RoPieeeXL seems to be a good solution. I’m sorry I haven’t been running it earlier. One of the main reasons I’ve been running Boot Camp/Windows on these old Macs was to solve the DSD problem to my two Oppo DACs (205 and HA-2). RoPieee on a Pi eliminates this problem and even runs HQPlayer NAA to boot. That alone saves me a lot of grief keeping the Windows partitions up to date. I can just run MacOS now which matches the rest of the house.

But I think i’m going to have to retire the 2010 Mac Mini regardless. The 555 build has reintroduced some OpenGL nastiness I haven’t seen much on Roon running on Mac and while it’s not as bad as the text problem from earlier, it may be just enough to abandon this machine for a newer mac Mini. I wanted to avoid putting extra money in finding a more up to date machine (maybe a 2014 model), but if Roon isn’t going to be good on some of these old graphic chip sets, then I may have no choice but to spend about $300 to look for a new (used) machine. It’s a shame since of the three ancient Macs I use for Roon clients, the Mac Mini is actually the newest one! (The others are a 2008 iMac and a 2009 Macbook).

And yes, I know I could use an Intel NUC…don’t think i haven’t thought of that. Who knows, I might be talked into it.

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I’m opening this again because it may help you with other graphics issues. I’d said earlier that the last several versions of Roon on Windows would lock up upon startup when it got to drawing album art while running Windows 10 on an aging Mac Mini with Nvidia 320m graphics. Yes, its pretty obsolete but I don’t need much horsepower to run a Roon kiosk in my house. I usually update Roon on Windows when a new version comes out in vain to see if the problem might end up getting corrected, especially if I see graphics tweaks mentioned in the release notes. And version 610 did.

To my surprise, 610 actually works again on my old Mac Mini under Windows, so…yay? But it’s back to the graphics artifacting I’d seen in versions until you guys largely fixed this on old ATI graphics cards. I think Roon on Windows on this machine had always had artifacting, but this is really awful. Still, progress…?

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