Roon + Qobuz issues on ISP-provided networking gear

If not discoverable, have you tried resetting the database to your Core (assuming you have it backed up)? That will often take care of these not finding issues (also assuming you can access your Core’s server via browser). If it remains flakey after that then might be a hardware issue so best to return under warranty imo.

EXACTLY after turning it off it did not turn on again.

Here is what bothers me most. You can read everywhere that the Nucleus+ is heavily overpriced for what it is inside. Also, my dealer told me an Inuous is a much better deal and works as Roon core as well. But I thought no one gives better support for Roon Core issues than the manufacturer. BUT there is no support at all.

They advertise with NO COMPUTER OR NETWORKING SKILLS REQUIRED.

Also in their Nucleus white-paper they tell you that their support staff connects remotely to your Nucleus to solve problems.

This is why I paid 2,5k. They sold me convenience, but they don’t deliver!

But I already grouped my crunchbase and social media team together to ask for answers from their C and VP level outside this forum.

Yes, I understand the frustration. But if your amp fails you would just get it repaired and not argue about the fact that it advertises: NO SOLDERING SKILLS OR CIRCUIT TRACING REQUIRED. Just get it repaired or replaced. Most computers/ start to do funny things before they fail, and that obviously was the case with yours.

I had a $12k when new Imacon scanner fail on me last year with no motherboard replacements to be found anywhere on the globe (it’s from 2004). Started doing really crazy stuff before it failed. It’s a hunk of useless metal now. Sh*t happens. Digital technology hasn’t quite brought the freedom from inconvenience, cost and maintenance that was promised early on, like something out of the Jetsons. If anything its made life just that much more difficult.

As well, next time probably best to take the advice of your dealer.

@Charles_Peterson I’m with you on the hardware side. My hardware failure post is a completely different thing and a different tonality.

But I disagree 100% when we talk about software and support. I do software for more than two decades and have seen the good, the bad, the ugly.

And when it is the latter, I have zero tolerance.

(Ya ya ya, I already hear ya all yelling, all your issues were supported perfectly or you have zero issues at all. But this isn’t your case here)

I agree with you on all points - my wife is a PM for MS doing releases snd I relate to her some of the Roon stuff (like 1.8 localization gaffe) and she just rolls her eyes and says that’s basic 101 release stuff to get right. So, yeah, they could probably step it up considerably. I will say it was mentioned by support that my having to rest the database all the time might be a hardware issue and I shrugged them off because it worked fine the rest of the time, just when upgrading the OS. I was having network connection issues as well. Well, guess what - since replacing the RAM, SSD, and pinched by mfg SATA cable all has been good. Before I had to steal myself for every update and set aside an hour for reloading the database from a backup, entering passwords and skipped the minor updates. Did this for years. Now it does it in minutes just as it should. Same motherboard and CPU, just Akasa case and better RAM and SSD. Took about two hours to do. All in with NUC, drives (internal 2.5 1TB ssd for music as well) case and memory it was about $800.

So I would imagine that often it is a hardware issue, either with the Core machine, network devices, etc. And of course wonky DNS schemes, poor wifi latency, etc. But if the hardware is up to snuff, it does seem to just run for most users. Sure I have to reboot the remote on my MacBook every few times but it only takes seconds. Minor first world problem. Anyway, I hope you get this resolved in a timely manner.

Hi @Georg_Kuklick ,

It looks like this thread has morphed from a #support topic to a general discussion about Roon and Qobuz + Network stability with many others chiming in, so I have moved it over to the #roon software section where such discussions are encouraged. The #support section is primarily for troubleshooting an issue with a user.

I know this is probably not what you want to hear, but this does indeed look like you are having a networking issue, and this is very likely what is causing the Qobuz issue to occur on your end. I will explain why this looks like a networking issue below.

I have enabled diagnostics mode for your account and what this action does is automatically generate and upload a log set to our servers for review. I see that a log report just came in from your Macbook, so it looks like you are using this as your current Core. Looking over the Macbook logs, this is what logs show:

  1. Connection failure to TIDALs servers and TIDAL sync failure:
11/30 20:43:06 Warn: Error in web request https://api.tidal.com/v1/playlists/6a1e6550-7352-46a0-90ef-175344097100/tracks?countryCode=US&offset=2500&limit=50: NetworkError (Error: ConnectFailure (Connection refused))
11/30 20:43:06 Trace: [tidal/storage] sync completed unsuccessfully in 19937ms: Result[Status=NetworkError]
  1. Network errors when connecting to our metadata servers to get Qobuz track info:
11/30 20:43:06 Warn: [easyhttp] [3937] Get https://metadata.roonlabs.net/1/albums/200:0:0724384775858/tracks?c=qobuz-us web exception without response: Error: ConnectFailure (Connection refused) Connection refused
11/30 20:43:06 Warn: [easyhttp] [3938] Get https://metadata.roonlabs.net/1/albums/200:0:eebrvaqej4t3a/tracks?c=qobuz-us web exception without response: Error: ConnectFailure (Connection refused) Connection refused
  1. Lots of Airplay/MDNS (multicast) requests, once every second, suggesting that Multicast is likely not working properly:
11/30 19:02:27 Trace: [mdns/dacp] [airplay/dacp] got command 'getproperty' value=0
11/30 19:02:27 Trace: [airplay] unknown transport control: getproperty
11/30 19:02:28 Trace: [mdns/dacp] [airplay/dacp] got command 'getproperty' value=0
11/30 19:02:28 Trace: [airplay] unknown transport control: getproperty
11/30 19:02:29 Trace: [mdns/dacp] [airplay/dacp] got command 'getproperty' value=0
11/30 19:02:29 Trace: [airplay] unknown transport control: getproperty
11/30 19:02:30 Trace: [mdns/dacp] [airplay/dacp] got command 'getproperty' value=0
11/30 19:02:30 Trace: [airplay] unknown transport control: getproperty
11/30 19:02:31 Trace: [mdns/dacp] [airplay/dacp] got command 'getproperty' value=0
11/30 19:02:31 Trace: [airplay] unknown transport control: getproperty

Based on these above log traces, I would say that your Macbook is also in an unstable state with regard to adding Qobuz content, so it doesn’t look like just the Nucleus was affected.

The issue here is very likely your router, we have seen ISP-provided gear be underpowered and cause issues, time and time again, and as such we highly suggest staying away from ISP-provided gear. We mention this explicitly in our Networking Best Practices Guide:

Poor quality or underpowered routers can play a major role when it comes to networking difficulties. 802.11n was superseded by 802.11ac five years ago, so at this point, 802.11n routers should be considered obsolete. Furthermore, the performance difference between early 802.11ac routers and current models can be substantial due to differences in CPU/RAM allotments. ISP-provided routers are often underpowered and poorly behaved. Finally, we strongly recommend against using Apple network devices such as the Apple Airport Extreme and Airport Express (note: it’s fine to use the Airport Express as an Airplay device). To ensure the best performance, we recommend against using these devices.

Having the MacBook as the Core on WiFi is also highly discouraged and can cause issues with stability. I suggest looking over this thread for a more in-depth discussion on Roon and network reliability:

I’ve responded to your #support request regarding the Nucleus hardware aspect in your other thread, it’s unfortunate that both issues occurred around the same time, but these should be handled as two separate issues. If the Nucleus was still operational, it is likely we would see similar networking errors.

Hope the above explanation helps clear things up a bit. Do let us know the Nucleus details in your other thread and we can handle that separately. Thank you.

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Thanks @noris, very useful & helpful, especially for the newbies w/o comprehensive computer/networking know-how.

Btw, Nucleus works fine for me since day 1, not a single issue, and still going strong. If anything happens (finger crossed) it is more likely some hardware issue(s) (SSD corruptions, RAM chips popped out, etc.).

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I have an iMac (2019) as my Core (on WiFi). I also use an ISP-provided router (Fritz!Box 7490). And I’m really glad I have absolutely no stability issues with Roon + Qobuz. However, if I were experiencing the kind of problems described on this thread and Roon support advised me to get another router, I’d be more than frustrated. Music software that requires industrial grade networking gear? I can only speak for myself, but I probably wouldn’t swap my router just because of Roon, definitely not if Roon were the only software having problems with my Fritz!Box…

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Hey @noris To your points:

This probably happened because your support was completely absence for some days! There was enough time for all others to water down the thread. They all felt like telling me that they have no issues. It’s still a support issue.

I know this is probably not what you want to hear. The logs you made are not from the former “too-cheap-for-roon” internet-provider network equipment. I bought some f*cking expensive top-notch netgear router.

Also first and foremost you mention: NO COMPUTER OR NETWORKING SKILLS REQUIRED

I used the MacBook as Roon Core because my Roon Nucleus+ stopped working entirely!

No it doesn’t it’s still no support and no solution!

You sent me some network errors, like: “Here see, there are some network errors. They explain all your problems.” No, they don’t. Not even close. If so, match the network errors to the existing issues and give me advise how to fix them. And this advice needs to be something like an easy to follow step by step instruction for computer dummies. Because: NO COMPUTER OR NETWORKING SKILLS REQUIRED

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Hi @Georg_Kuklick ,

I’ve followed up via private message so that we can work on these issues one-on-one in a support context.

Anecdotally, I have found Roon/Qobuz to be more sensitive to network problems than any other combo. I had both Qobuz and Tidal and when I encountered some network issues after an internet upgrade, tidal worked fine via Roon, while Qobuz was unusable. (Actually, qobuz so reliably failed that it made it easier to find the issue, in the end!)

It took a day or two of tinkering to resolve the issue, with the help of my ISP. I have a background in network engineering, but the actual fix just came down to trying all the various combinations of how things could be plugged together until the issue was isolated.

Since getting that issue resolved Roon/Qobuz has been rock solid.

I have Qobuz but not Tidal. Doing some network monitoring, I found that the Roon core can burst to > 800Mbps when downloading the next track from Qobuz. In my case, this is over a wired Ubiquiti router and Motorola cable modem that are totally separate from my WiFi AP. But I can see how an underpowered all-in-one router could easily saturate and start dropping packets between the core and the Roon endpoints.

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That is very interesting info. So Roon must buffer a chunk of downloaded music in RAM?

Looks that way. Looking at my core networking graphs, I see a burst each second peaking at 800Mbps, which is just under the download rate I’m paying Xfinity for (other things are going on on my network, anyway, including video streaming that my SO is watching).

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Interesting indeed.
Simply because my network connection is only around 90mbps total.
And the wife watches Netflix and I stream Qobuz hires through Roon at the same time and no dropouts…ever…

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I have had similar problems with Qobuz and Roon on my 2014 MAC Mini. I can stream Apple Music all day no problem. Can’t do that with Qobuz. Can’t seem to get through a complete album without a problem. I can stream complete movies i.e 2 to 3 hours on Netflix. No problem. Another problem i have with Roon is the wifi connection between my IPhone and Roon constantly drops. Gave up using the Iphone. To frustrating. Just run Roon from the MAC Mini. ROON has problems.

That makes sense. A lower ISP data rate may be helpful in that track download will burst to a level (90Mbps in your case) that lower-powered routers can handle. The bad scenario is a very high ISP throughput (1GHz in my case) with a low-powered router that can’t handle that while feeding the endpoints without drops. IOW, sometimes more is less :grimacing: IMHO, Roon should throttle its requests to Qobuz to accommodate mediocre routers: no reason to burst to 800Mbps every second vs. steadily drawing 10Mbps, which is what my graph above shows would be more than enough to stream 96/24 well.

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Activating QoS (preferably fq_codel SQM) in your router might help. You can check your bufferbloat here.

Sorry if I rain on someone’s parade again. Here is the timeline with some interesting insights.

In my new home in Vienna, I used a Nuclues+ with my internet provider’s router and had many issues. These issues were not new to me, but they’ve increased in the last couple of weeks. (There are forum posts from this summer from me addressing the same problems. At this time, I were still living in Munich and had my Nucleus+ and Streamer hard wired with no wifi at all)

When I wrote the initial post in the support channel, the wild crowd (all love) told me that I for sure have network problems, and it can’t be Roon or my Nucleus+. Argument: Because they have no issues.

The Roon support probably thought: Ok, the crowd is doing what they always do. Hijacking the post and telling people that they have no problems with Roon, ergo, my issues must be false.

No help from support.

So I bought a f*cking expensive Netgear router because they all shouted at me: “EVIL internet provider hardware stinks. It can’t work - go spend more money.”

And because there was no other support at this time, I spent more money.

Then I did the hard-wired thing with my new crazy top-notch network hardware. But the problems stayed the same.

And on top, I had cables running through my apartment now.

Better hardware & hard-wired. No positive effect.

To clean up the cable mess, at least, I found a new place for the Nucleus+. I turned the Nucleus+ off and carried it to the living room. Since then, the Nucleus+ did not boot anymore. The Nucleus has died.

To listen to music, I installed a Roon core on my MacBook. It’s connected via wifi to my old internet provider’s router!!!

At the same time, the Roon support chimed in for the very first time.

And they told me:

Oh, you are using a MacBook as Roon Core. That’s bad.

The Roon Core on your MacBook uses wifi. That’s bad.

You are using the standard hardware of your internet provider. That’s bad.

YOU KNOW WHAT? Most of the problems are solved now!

The “That’s bad” setup with my MacBook via wifi on my cheap standard router runs more stable and with far fewer errors than the Nucleus+ on a top-of-the-line Netgear router! I spent 3.5k for Nucleus= plus the new Netgear router. This is hilarious.

What about this? It’s not always the cheap network’s fault. There is some evidence that the Nucules+, the implementation of network functionality in the Roon software, and the need for fancy network equipment are quite overrated.

My take on this:

1. It wasn’t worth the money to buy a Nuclues+
2. It wasn’t worth the money to buy expensive network gear.

SIGNAL vs. NOISE

  1. Guys, stop telling everyone: “Roon is fine; the problem is on your side.”
  2. Guys, stop hijacking support threads. This causes a lack of reaction from the real Roon Support!
  3. Guys, it does not help to tell people that you have no issues.
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Ditto , mine is nominally 20 mbs but normally measures 13-4 at best

I watch Netflix, have Tidal via Roon etc with zero blips

I am forced by my ISP to have a cheapy router for their diagnostics, I feed that to an Archer D9 (to link)

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