The future of Roon for non-streaming users?

Clearly if Amazon or Apple were to make an acquisition of Roon it would likely be absorbed into the corporate eco system and would probably not be maintained as a individual service.

I would imagine all subscription customers be offered discount to move over and lifetime subscription customers made some kind of discount offer to compensate for loss of service.

But who knows how it would go.

There again it is equally possible that as well as the above happening that Roon as a separate product would still exist.

In other words to take the example of Amazon Music HD they could have a Roon exclusive version that ONLY supports AMHD and Roon as we know it today would continue to market a version that is premium and supports Qobuz, TIDAL and AMHD, etc.

I would prefer this approach

From feedback I have seen roon seem to have succeeded in surfacing Classical access and navigation features that will benefit a much larger group of more casual Classical listeners. I like to be able to access content in other genres I know little about as well so I get that. It would have been better though if the improvements were presented in a more balanced way rather than creating and disappointing expectations. A new generation of roon Classical listeners after all will end up grappling with the same old unaddressed issues as they gain more experience.

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I think many here would pay more if there was a clear path that the artist was getting the “more” vs going to the streamer company, the record label, etc.

I would love for Roon to support some of these alternatives that are more artist friendly.

Roon + Amazon path:

Gommie

I have been exploring the new Roon Version. I must admit I am not into suggestions and new discoveries, new music etc. I play my music and hardly let myself be persuaded to try this or that.
I hardly do playlists. I am glad Roon makes its fans happy with these features, but I am not so amused.
I guess that perhaps one day I will embrace them after all (I mean the features, not the fans)

What I miss:

Looking for an artist you click on the artist’s name and get lots of albums.
First the library items and then the Qobuz ones
The older Roon versions put the library or Qobuz sign under the albums in the list, so that that you could quickly see what is what.
Now you can only find out library or Qobuz by clicking on the album and opening the three vertical dots. This is a minor thing of course, but is there a way/will to repair this.

I still find it strange that, when I ask for an artist, quite a lot of albums of this artist are not shown.
For instance. I click on Karajan. Not even half of the albums appear.
I click on Herbert von Karajan. A few albums more but by far not all of them.
Yet Roon says: All album search results of Herbert von Karajan. All??? No.

However, let me praise the Roon technicians.

Visually it is breathtakingly beautiful and lots of information on artists and composers etc. are there to be consulted (or not…)
Thanks a lot for all your efforts.

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I was just put off a bit by the comments made by one of the Roon’s member in that thread. Regardless who was right or wrong, his message or the poor choice of words, didn’t help his point.

Really like Roon as I stated previously. Just a bit worry on how to proceed with my subscription, as I was planning to buy the “Lifetime Subscription”. I know that everything can change, and I also understand that “streaming” is the future. But that being said, I also have a large collection of FLACs music files, and that was one of the main reason I decided to do the Roon trail.

Peace,
Tony

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You can turn on these markers under Settings/General/Customize album display.
Turned on icons:

Turned on album format:

Album format is always shown on the album page:

More likely than not, Tidal and Qoboz won’t be around in 5 years. Napster died, the iTunes music store died, and the streaming market is 80% owned by Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon and Google. Neither service even has over a 2% market share today.

At a certain point you have to have paying users to keep up with the overhead of providing a streaming service. Tidal has almost folded on a couple occasions since they began, and the additional investments both companies received are not going to get re-upped in the current environment.

The big boys won’t be buying either service. So while I respect Roon for giving the streaming services a role in the app, any functionality offered to one/either should have parity with local files. Statistically these services have little chance of long-term survival. Roon only has access to these services because they are NOT doing big numbers. If they were, they wouldn’t cede control of their product for marginal additional subscriptions. The same reason Spotify and the rest will never open up to Roon or anyone else.

I see the model as completely flawed in the long-run and if Tidal folded next week what would a lot of this Valence stuff do for users currently? Next to nothing. That’s the shame here: catering to fleeting use cases while not designing a data model that provides discovery and learning regardless of the content source.

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How would you discover something you’re not able to play?

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I’ve got over 20K albums. About 10% is vinyl rips. Another 20% is CD rips. You can find big lots of CDs for dirt cheap and if they’re in good shape I’m always down to increase my collection.

There’s this flawed thinking that “discovery” is a one-time thing or a streaming service is required. Re-discovering, making new connections, adding new music to my library is an essential part of my music listening no matter what the platform is. I do the same thing with my vinyl physically, but that added data and context of Roon, plus the ease of use, is probably why I use Roon so much more than my turntable (outside of ripping records).

It’s almost insulting to think that users with large local libraries have listened to it all. Thus why seeing the “In Their Prime” section for artists in my library is useful (more useful if I don’t have to log into a Qoboz account I don’t use).

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I have a similarly large on-disc collection, but the reality is users like us are maybe .5-1% of Roon’s customer base. Metadata and Roon Radio already do a lot to aid discovery and exploration, but I agree where the content is there in their prime and the like would be useful.

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That may be true. I haven’t seen anything on how library size breaks down amongst users. I just know I wouldn’t spend a lot of money to manage a few albums, and if streaming services go away what incentive will those users with no local library or a tiny one really have to continue using Roon?

Discovery, learning, etc is really minimal if you don’t have much variety of data. I’ve been using Roon for 5+ years though and sold a half dozen other friends on using it with big libraries. Maybe I’m mistaken that a sizable percentage of the user base had 10’s of thousands of tracks in their library, but IMO Roon should be as useful of a tool if you have a large library as it is if you have no library.

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I wouldn’t either. But I would to manage 60 million albums. A long way to go with the streaming model I think as there are actually problems for all participants in the value chain at the moment from production to consumption.

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I guess what I’m trying to say is that Roon’s business model doesn’t align as a third party re-packaging of a successful streaming service.

We can debate the merits of what makes a streaming service successful as an experience, but the operational costs go down per user as your user base grows. Nothing I’ve read or seen about T/Q indicates they are growing exponentially at all so how many years does a low-revenue generating streaming service even have to retain catalog rights? Innovate their own product? Grow their user base? Return a profit for investors?

Amazon has zero reason to put their lossless streaming content into Roon or any other third party. Why would they? They have their consistent brand across platforms, something Roon has shoved down our throats for years after asking them to adopt iOS functionality they haven’t done or done slowly. Point being, no company wants to minimize brand consistency or lose power to a better interface or product from a third party. The two currently are doing it to expand their reach because they are getting dwarfed by Spotify, Apple, YouTube and Amazon, and because Roon brings them hifi enthusiasts that can help offset their poor regular user revenue with a more expensive offering.

Roon users thinking Amazon will come on board come off as delusional to the reality of the situation. And my suspicion is that they deep down know that Roon has partnered with two streaming services that have little to no chance of long-term survival so a bigger one with possibly infinite staying power would be the obvious best choice.

I like Qoboz’s focus on quality more than Tidal’s haphazard, “We’re the hip-hop and youth music platform competing for new releases” while simultaneously “the platform for wealthy niche users who want the highest quality music!” but the name alone will always make it a drop in the bucket compared to Tidal and Jay-Z’s recognition.

Yet Tidal never broke through and the mere existence of Roon and its 100k users tells you that lossless streaming will never break through to a mass audience. Maybe not “never” but not until US broadband infrastructure catches up, storage prices drop, major labels cede their power and all of the barriers let lossless flow like a river.

I appreciate Tidal and Qoboz for making innovative efforts and a commitment to quality, but no one has shown me or anyone else what a realistic runway is for the 7th or 8th largest streaming platform in the US is, let alone Qoboz who may be barely cracking the top 15. Their entire business was built upon scaled growth and neither will ever have that. So how do they continue through 2025 or 2030?

My hope would be that Roon leverages the experience of working with two different streaming partners to integrate any service willing to open up their platform, but makes the software run as seemlessly as possible regardless of content source.

My fear is you wake up and find out one of them is shutting down. Then another. Where does that leave Roon? What resources would need to be devoted to integrating another service at the expense of other development work? How do you market all of this Valence technology not offered in a personal library if they only work on streaming services?

Maybe I’m selfish as a lifetime subscriber but I’d like Roon stay around as long as possible and be as successful as possible and my inclination is that they will outlast both streaming services because they offer a true market leading delivery technology in homes. The faster Roon implements platform agnostic AI and leverages more of the data we are providing them as users, the less specific streaming services matter. Just like every other industry, there will be consolidation and it won’t be to the favor of minor players like T/Q.

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HI there, new to roon since the last days of 1.7,
with the new portrait mode in iPad Roon is good to go for me, so i go with lifetime option after 10 days. Thats because i have faith in the roon team, theses guys are relative young and they seem to be motivated. The 2 streaming options are too expensive for me, iam happy with my library so its important for me that roon focus on non-streaming options. I have only a subscription to DI since 1999 (they stream with 320bit) and thats enough for me. One thing missing is Bandcamp in roon, perhaps in the future there will be an option ?!

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I’ve just read all of your posts, in fact the entire thread now. I don’t want to pull pieces from what you’ve written in your various responses, but have done so with the above which I think is vital.

However, when the topic of integrating other services into Roon (regardless of whether it is possible or not, now or into the future), I am constantly surprised by those that respond negatively. (As most know, I don’t use streaming services - local library only)

Those responses often go no deeper than: I’m happy with service A or B, we don’t need anything more. And that shortsightedness always astounds me.

And finally…

I too would like Roon to hang around well into the future. Of course, when it comes to technology, it’s very difficult to have a looking glass, as much changes very quickly, so it’s often nigh on impossible to predict what a given technological landscape will look like in 5 years, let alone 10 and more years.

I think to ensure Roon’s longevity they need to attract a younger audience. Perhaps some of your ideas are a means to leverage this crowd. Alas, it is well known the younger generation do not listen & consume music the same way as older generations. On that basis, I do not think they will automatically fall into the Roon marketplace as things stand now. They do not seem to ‘value’ music as many of the preceding generations have done so.

Cheers.

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I would dump my local library in a heartbeat. I have no more commitment to it than the boxes of CD’s and Vinyl we have rotting in storage at the moment. There are serious challenges to be overcome before I would transition 100% online but the sooner the better I think.

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And what’s holding you back?

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Actually for about 2 years I was using a predominantly streaming only library so this might add some insight.

Several years back I had a disaster with a music server with an 8TB local library built up over probably 25 years. So I just rebuilt a Qobuz one combined with the small amount of local files I had on the laptop and in the car I used for travel. I found I didn’t miss the old library at all. Quite the opposite. I was now listening to new music as I had in my youth. I hadn’t realise just how stale my listening habits had become over the years. However, old habits die hard, so over lock-down I finally got round to retrieving the 8TB library and have only just recently finished re-importing it into roon. It gave me the chance to tidy up all my tagging so it is much more consistent now but I wouldn’t have bothered except for lockdown.

Of course, now I have an awful lot of local/Qobuz duplicates. The main thing I notice I still value the local library for is Vinyl Rips, and specialist labels like 2xHD and Pristine Audio and mastering’s like MFSL and XRCD. But that’s a very small percentage of the library. There are also other gaps I find in the Qobuz catalogue that I have in my local library, and that is annoying, but that is more than compensated for by the deep catalogue of stuff Qobuz has and I don’t. For example, a lot of French and Francophone pop music, jazz and classical I just never had and would never otherwise have been exposed to.

I don’t regret rebuilding the local library. The streaming ecosystem is still a work in progress and there will be many changes over the coming years. There has to be more certainty for example. Qobuz is very small, maybe 60 employees. I would rather be dealing with a company with the scale of Amazon or the history of Deutsche Grammophon. I would also like a customisation layer on top of a streaming account like Qobuz that I could use to add value to the streaming content and I could port from streaming account to streaming account. The ability to de-couple like that and the eco system of tools to realise that doesn’t exist for now, but I am sure it will and probably sooner than we think. Maybe roon sees that role in some limited way but it looks like there is a long way to go yet.

So yes, I really don’t want the responsibility and nuisance and inconvenience and worry and just plain hard work and the rest of it that goes with managing a local library. I very much Iook forward to the day I can finally consign my local library 100% to the attic. Unfortunately there is a long way to go yet.

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Baked into your posts is the assumption that there is a large enough market of local library owners to sustain Roon with growing numbers of users year over year.

I don’t know if that is the case.

I do know that Roon owners have access to detailed data from Roon itself and industry data. So they know the user trends.

If Tidal and Qobuz go out business Roon may not survive. They need a growing customer base and like it or not that growth demands a streaming service in my view.

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