Use of Roon iPhone or iPad app interrupts play

I rarely if ever experience the problem of music being interrupted while using Roon except…when I try to do something via Roon on my iPhone or iPad (as opposed to walking into the room where my iMac sits and performing the action on Roon on the iMac).

This was never a problem when I first started using Roon at least two years ago, and has only surfaced in the past year. No, there have been no change to my hardware.

Facts about my system:

My Roon core is on my iMac. My own library is on an external drive connected to my iMac. But I listen most frequently – and experience the problem – by streaming Tidal, so my external library is not the issue.

My Roon endpoint is a PS Audio Direct Stream DAC with Network Bridge. To accomplish the Ethernet connection that is necessary for the DAC I use two ZyXEL Powerline Ethernet Adapters. Again, all of this hardware worked flawlessly for months, and I accessed Roon via my iPhone and iPad with no problems.

BTW I now have a new iPhone SE which replaced an older iPhone model. The problem I’ve described began with the older iPhone and continues with the new one.

Does anyone have any insight on the problem and how I might fix it? Thanks.

I have experienced similar issues and the common factor may be the use of power-line networking particularly affecting streaming, Qobuz in my case. I “solved” my issue by effectively changing network topology to ensure streaming was only piped through the powerline link once. The solved scare quotes are because I can still replicate the issue in one room in the house.

I’ll try to elaborate. Until two months ago I ran my core as a Docker container in my office. This is connected to my router by a powerline link. Everything in the office was fine but I experienced the issue you describe on other endpoints, most annoyingly on my main rig in the front room listening to Qobuz. This rig is all ethernet direct to my router so should have an optimal connection as long as the ethernet cable’s not faulty. My diagnosis was as follows. Roon’s central core architecture means all music gets processed by the core first. When streaming the data passes through the router, to the core via powerline for processing then back through the powerline link to the router for playing downstairs or for wireless routing to Chromecasts. It’s this simultaneous two way use of the powerline link that effectively overwhelmed it causing the issue you describe as well as occasional Qobuz track skips and other network gremlins.

My solution was to hardwire the core to directly the router so the 2 way processing link is as reliable as possible. This meant moving to a NUC in my case but the key was to use a single cable connection between core and router, you might be able to achieve this without buying hardware.

Even though only processed data has to come from the core to my office via Powerline, this single endpoint now occasionally demonstrates the problem, and only with =>96khz. Previously this was the only fault free endpoint. Roon don’t recommend the use of Powerline networking. I’m currently renting so can’t start dropping ethernet lines about the place so this is the best of a bad job but it works almost flawlessly now and I understand why one endpoints problematic.

I will add an observation that RAAT appears to be the prima donna of streaming protocols here. I can stream video with no observable issues to the office and regularly do. That said I know the Roon team worked hard on RAAT’s reliability, I suspect at the expense of low tolerance of poor quality network links. I’m not sure of the exact engineering choices and compromises available when developing this but reliability seems a laudable primary aim so…

My (old, pre-Roon) experience with powerline adapters is that they may seem to work well most of the time, but they suffer bursts of packet losses occasionally, typically when people are home running appliances. Power lines are great receiving antennas for some frequencies, and of course they carry high-frequency noise from what they power.

My experience with RAAT is that it is very sensitive to packet losses. My interpretation is that even though RAAT is layered over TCP that recovers from packet loss by retransmission, that only goes so far because RAAT needs to keep feeding the endpoint at the rate the endpoint demands, so a sustained packet loss burst will be enough for Roon to see a timing issue and give up.

My conclusion is that I’ve given up on powerline adapters, especially for Roon. And WiFI can also be problematic in congested neighborhoods like mine. In my current home I could not run ethernet through the walls and floors easily (lots of concrete), but fortunately there was (cable TV) coax into all the relevant rooms, so I repurposed it (we don’t watch TV anyway) with MoCA adapters, which work beautifully. My router connects to one adapter, which then connects to a low-loss coax splitter that terminates three coax runs that reach my audio rooms, where other adapters bridge to ethernet switches that all devices hang from.

I appreciate the replies. In my case the connection between my core (iMac) and my router is hardwired. It does not rely on the power line adapters.

What I do not understand is why the problem only appears when I use my iPhone or iPad Roon apps.

How does one get a response from someone in Roon Support?

Hello @Geoff_Mirelowitz, and thanks for your report! Could you please try playing to system output of your iMac and see if this issue still exists?

So we can better assist you, please provide a brief description of your current setup using this link as a guide.

Make sure to describe your network configuration/topology, including any networking hardware currently in use, so we can have a clear understanding of how your devices are communicating.

  1. I have already provided my system information, in my original post. So if you need specific information I did not provide please state clearly what the information is you are asking for.

  2. I am not able to

Let me try to explain the problem with some screen shots. The first shows my output choices in Roon:

When I disable my usual device (PS Audio DAC) and enable either of the other two, NO music plays on my iMac (yes the sound is on and turned up).

Also, when I enable “Built-in Output Core Audio” it changes into this (second screen shot):

The Geek Pulse is a DAC that was once connected to my iMac, long ago. It is not connected now.

So I am at a loss as to how to do what you suggested. Please advise with clear step-by-step instructions. Thank you.

Hello @Geoff_Mirelowitz, and thanks for providing screenshots. The system output option was the one I wanted to test, so thanks for testing that! Also, the network information I’d like to know is what router you’re using and the model number of that router.

Could you also try playing to system output of your phone or iPad and see if the same issue occurs?

I’d also like to enable diagnostics for your account, next time you’re able to reproduce this issue could you please reply to this thread with a timestamp of when you observed the issue? From there I can enable diagnostics and collect a report for our team. Thanks!

Nuwriy thank you. I apologize but again I am not certain how to do what you are asking.

First regarding the router: Mine is provided by Xfinity. Neither the name nor model number is apparent to me so I have taken a photo that should provide all the information that is available.

I don’t know what that means or how to do it. Are you asking that rather than begin a Roon play session from my iMac (as I normally do) that I initiate it from my iPhone or iPad via the Roon app on those devices?

If you intend something else, please explain.

Regarding this:

Again I don’t understand what you are asking me to do. The way the problem occurs is this:

After initiating a listening session from my iMac, at some point I open the Roon app one of my portable devices. It could be to play a different song or just to look for an album. Generally not immediately, but within a minute or so (even if I have already completed whatever I was doing on the phone or iPad) the music stops. Generally I need to restart it and can do so from the mobile device. But it then often stops again. And sometimes I am unable to begin play again from the mobile device and thus need to walk to the other room and begin play again from Roon on my iMac.

I am at a loss for how to document all of that for you and I do not know what this means:

I’m happy to do whatever I can to help you diagnose the problem, but my technical knowledge is limited. I purchased a lifetime Roon membership to make listening to music easy. :wink:

Hello @Geoff_Mirelowitz, and thanks for the explanation. Here’s what we need to do:

  1. Try to make the issue happen again, or wait for it to surface.
  2. Reply to this thread with the date and time (in your local timezone) when you’ve noticed the issue occurs.
  3. From there, I will enable diagnostics and take things from there.
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OK. I can do that. The issue occurs virtually every time I use my iPhone or iPad Roon apps during a listening session. I will listen later today and let you know.

@nuwriy My listening session began at 2:03 pm (PDT). At 2:14 the problem appeared as “Blues On Down” from the album, “The Jazztet Big City Sound” was playing." The music stopped.

At first my Roon app showed nothing playing and told me to choose a selection. However before I could do that, play began on a song from a different album that I had lined up as the next song in my queue: “Blues On My Mind” from the album, “Benny Golson and the Philadelphians.”

I hope this helps.

BTW, for several minutes after initiating the listening session, when I opened the Roon app on my iPhone I could do nothing with that app, because it showed I was not signed in to Tidal. An icon of a gear showed spinning when I looked at the Services tab. But I was logged in to Tidal and whatever was playing through Roon (again initiated on my iMac) was from Tidal.

Music just stopped again at 2:21 pm. This time the Roon app on my iPhone allowed me to resume play of the same song (“Blues On My Mind”) where the playing had stopped. It did not automatically advance to another selection.

@nuwriy FYI the problem continues to recur. At 2:35 play stopped again. I was able to restart it on the same song.

I will stop updating you on this listening session. Suffice it to say three interruptions of the play within one half hour of listening is a problem.

Can you update me in any way on your response to this issue?

If not, can you give me any kind of estimate as to when you might be able to offer me some assistance?

Thank you.

Hello @Geoff_Mirelowitz, thanks for your patience while I discussed this thread with our team. In your logs, we found the following trace:

09/18 17:27:22 Trace: [PS Audio Direct Stream DAC] [Lossless, 16/44 TIDAL FLAC => 16/44] [100% buf] [PLAYING @ 3:50/5:38] The Beat Goes On (Live) - Emilie-Claire Barlow / Sonny Bono
09/18 17:27:27 Trace: [PS Audio Direct Stream DAC] [Lossless, 16/44 TIDAL FLAC => 16/44] [100% buf] [PLAYING @ 3:55/5:38] The Beat Goes On (Live) - Emilie-Claire Barlow / Sonny Bono
09/18 17:27:32 Trace: [PS Audio Direct Stream DAC] [Lossless, 16/44 TIDAL FLAC => 16/44] [100% buf] [PLAYING @ 4:00/5:38] The Beat Goes On (Live) - Emilie-Claire Barlow / Sonny Bono
09/18 17:27:33 Info: [stats] 13506mb Virtual, 3215mb Physical, 1880mb Managed, 94 Threads,  FDs 
09/18 17:27:37 Trace: [PS Audio Direct Stream DAC] [Lossless, 16/44 TIDAL FLAC => 16/44] [100% buf] [PLAYING @ 4:05/5:38] The Beat Goes On (Live) - Emilie-Claire Barlow / Sonny Bono
09/18 17:27:42 Trace: [PS Audio Direct Stream DAC] [Lossless, 16/44 TIDAL FLAC => 16/44] [100% buf] [PLAYING @ 4:10/5:38] The Beat Goes On (Live) - Emilie-Claire Barlow / Sonny Bono
09/18 17:27:43 Trace: [PS Audio DirectStream DAC @ 10.0.0.91:52377] [raatclient] GOT [42068] {"samples":24152,"status":"Dropout"}
09/18 17:27:44 Trace: [PS Audio DirectStream DAC @ 10.0.0.91:52377] [raatclient] GOT [42068] {"samples":21168,"status":"Dropout"}
09/18 17:27:44 Trace: [PS Audio DirectStream DAC @ 10.0.0.91:52377] [raatclient] GOT [42068] {"samples":21168,"status":"Dropout"}
09/18 17:27:45 Trace: [PS Audio DirectStream DAC @ 10.0.0.91:52377] [raatclient] GOT [42068] {"samples":21168,"status":"Dropout"}
09/18 17:27:45 Trace: [PS Audio DirectStream DAC @ 10.0.0.91:52377] [raatclient] GOT [42068] {"samples":24696,"status":"Dropout"}
09/18 17:27:46 Trace: [PS Audio DirectStream DAC @ 10.0.0.91:52377] [raatclient] GOT [42068] {"samples":21168,"status":"Dropout"}
09/18 17:27:46 Warn: [PS Audio Direct Stream DAC] [zoneplayer/raat] Too many dropouts (>3s dropped out in the last 30s). Killing stream
09/18 17:27:46 Trace: [PS Audio Direct Stream DAC] [zoneplayer/raat] too many dropouts. stopping stream
09/18 17:27:46 Warn: [zone PS Audio Direct Stream DAC] Track Stopped Due to Slow Media
09/18 17:27:46 Info: [audio/env] [zoneplayer -> stream] All streams were disposed
09/18 17:27:46 Trace: [PS Audio Direct Stream DAC] [zoneplayer/raat] Endpoint PS Audio DirectStream DAC State Changed: Playing => Prepared
09/18 17:27:46 Trace: [PS Audio DirectStream DAC @ 10.0.0.91:52377] [raatclient] SENT [47232]{"request":"end_stream"}
09/18 17:27:46 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting
09/18 17:27:46 Warn: [raat/tcpaudiosource] send failed: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
09/18 17:27:46 Warn: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting + retrying
09/18 17:27:46 Info: [audio/env] [zoneplayer -> stream -> endpoint] All streams were disposed
09/18 17:27:46 Info: [audio/env] [zoneplayer] All streams were disposed
09/18 17:27:46 Info: Alert: TIDAL: tidal_media_slow
09/18 17:27:46 Info: [library] recorded play for profile bcfa0f48-1b68-425d-b00e-dded51b4688b: mediaid=50:1:66c6575f-80c0-44de-b7af-f3e158be4bf2 metadataid= contentid=168:0:73033803 libraryid=50:1:66c6575f-80c0-44de-b7af-f3e158be4bf2 isfromswim=False
09/18 17:27:46 Info: [zone PS Audio Direct Stream DAC] OnPlayFeedback StoppedEndOfMediaUnnatural
09/18 17:27:46 Debug: [zone PS Audio Direct Stream DAC] _Advance
09/18 17:27:46 Info: Alert: TIDAL: tidal_media_slow
09/18 17:27:46 Trace: [library] finished with 11 dirty tracks 1 dirty albums 20 dirty performers 11 dirty works 11 dirty performances 0 clumping tracks, 0 clumping auxfiles 0 compute tracks, 0 deleted tracks, 0 tracks to (re)load, 0 tracks to retain, 0 auxfiles to (re)load, 0 auxfiles to retain, and 44 changed objects
09/18 17:27:46 Info: sleep 81ms after flush
09/18 17:27:46 Info: [PS Audio Direct Stream DAC] [zoneplayer] BufferingTrack == NextTrack during ClearQueuedMedia, setting _stop_on_next_track_transition
09/18 17:27:46 Trace: [PS Audio Direct Stream DAC] [Lossless, 16/44 TIDAL FLAC => 16/44] [100% buf] [LOADING @ 0:00] Blame It on My Youth (Live) - Emilie-Claire Barlow / Edward Heyman / Oscar Levant
09/18 17:27:46 Debug: [query] Sooloos.Broker.Transport.TransportItem: 5000 dirty items. rebuilding query instead of re-sorting item-by-item (internaltype=TransportItem)
09/18 17:27:46 Debug: [query] Sooloos.Broker.Transport.TransportItem: 5000 dirty items. rebuilding query instead of re-sorting item-by-item (internaltype=TransportItem)
09/18 17:27:46 Info: MPNowPlayingInfoCenter: Connect
09/18 17:27:46 Trace: [PS Audio DirectStream DAC @ 10.0.0.91:52377] [raatclient] GOT [42068] {"samples":21168,"status":"Dropout"}
09/18 17:27:46 Warn: [PS Audio Direct Stream DAC] [zoneplayer/raat] Too many dropouts (>3s dropped out in the last 30s). Killing stream
09/18 17:27:46 Trace: [PS Audio Direct Stream DAC] [zoneplayer/raat] too many dropouts. stopping stream
09/18 17:27:46 Trace: updated recents in 100ms
09/18 17:27:46 Trace: updated recents in 0ms
09/18 17:27:46 Trace: updated recents in 116ms
09/18 17:27:46 Trace: updated recents in 0ms 

Which point to slow network traffic, are you able to try this on a mobile hotspot or a different network as a test?

I don’t understand any of the data you shared. So I’d like to ask a question. You say the conclusion is:

If the problem is the network why does the problem only occur when I try to control Roon from a mobile app (on my iPhone or iPad)? Why do I not experience the same problem when I control Roon from my iMac?

The only other network that is available to me (others belong to neighbors that would require a password), appears on my list of wifi network choices as “xfinitywifi.” It is possible that is a “mobile hotspot”. I don’t know how to identify such a thing. Whatever that network is, it is always been more unreliable than my own whenever I had inadvertently used it.

If you insist, I will try it, but I’m concerned it will increase my use of data, requiring a new more expensive data plan. (As long as I stream Roon on my own network there are no additional data charges.) I have no desire for such an additional expense. And again, why does the problem only appear when I use a mobile app to control Roon?

Hello @Geoff_Mirelowitz, and my apologies for the confusion here. I got a clarification from our QA team about this log trace and would like to correct my previous post with the following:

The trace points toward the PS Audio’s CPU not being able to keep up with the audio Roon is sending it. Our team wanted to know if you’ve reached out to PS Audio about this issue? While you reach out to them, I’ll take a look on the community for similar reports of the issue.

Thanks for the clarification. I have not reached out to PS Audio because the problem began quite a while after I introduced the PS Audio DAC into my system. But I will ask them now and get back to you. I may not have any information until after the weekend.

I just spoke at length with someone in PS Audio’s tech support. His answer is he is “99% sure” the issue is not the CPU in the DAC. He says there are actually two CPUs, one in the DAC and one in the Network Bridge, but he cannot imagine how either could be causing this problem.

Please keep in mind I did not have this problem for many months after I introduced the PS Audio DAC and Network Bridge to my system.

He did agree to look at the trace information you posted and I have sent it to him. He will talk to some of their other folks but he said he would be surprised if the problem is caused by their equipment. Apparently there have been no other similar problems reported to them.

Hello @Geoff_Mirelowitz, please let us know what PS Audio has to say. PS Audio has a direct line to our team so we’re happy to take any questions they have.