Using 3 SOtM sMS NEO endpoints Qobuz Studio streaming service dropouts, skips, aborts

Core Machine

• NUC7i7BNH server-Crucial SSD 1TB with library (11303 tracks), WD My Cloud Pro PR2100 10TB (backups only) RAID1, 20TB raw
• Internal Music Storage: 1TB, 76% of 924GB available
• Roon dB: 96% of 114 GB available
• Server: Version 1.8 (build 795) stable (64bit)
• OS Version 1.0 (build 227) stable

Network Details

  • Network: TPLink TL-R600VPN Router, TPLink TC-7610 DOCSIS3.0, Netgear GS108, TPLink TL-SG1008D1
    APs: TPLink AP500, TL-WA801ND
  • My ISP - Comcast Xfinity - stated, “Connection speed with good results: 19mbps down adequate for Streaming 4K video” https://speed.cloudflare.com/ confirms the same for small files, large files, low latency, and low jitter. It’s not the ISP.

Audio Devices

  • DHCP with reservation for ROCK server
  • Endpoints (7):
    • 4 Sonos Connects (ZP120) - coax
    • 3 SOtM sMS-200 NEO endpoints - USB
      • Topping E30 DAC
      • Topping E30 DAC
      • SMSL M400 DAC
  • All endpoints are connected using Ethernet the lowest average throughput on the LAN is ~462 Mbps
  • Remotes: 2 PCs (Windows), Android Galaxy Tab A 10.5 tablet

Library Size

Library of 11303 tracks

Description of Issue

  • Issues, using 3 SOtM sMS NEO endpoints during the last two weeks
    • Qobuz Studio streaming service
      • Starts, drops, skips tracks, and stops eventually for all bitrates, especially Hi-Res and MQA.
      • Issues occurs on all SOtM endpoints regardless of DAC used
    • Prior to June 2021, there were no issues streaming Hi-Res files
    • The issues started after upgrading the SOtM devices (3) firmware and kernel. Upgrades were recommended by SOtM after adding the SMSL M400 DAC
    • Currently, there are no apparent issues streaming local (LAN-local area network) content 44.1kHz 16bit WAV files at a 1411kbps bitrate
    • SOtM suggested adjusting the roon configuration for buffer and sync, but none of that helped.
    • Sometimes an SOtM device will disappear from roon/Settings/Audio, requiring a cold boot of the SOtM. Yes, the DAC is attached and online.
  • No issues with the following, but used for reference in the same LAN
    4 Sonos Connects (ZP120) (an incredible 17 years old)
    • Roon finds all 4 Sonos Connects in a spit second and plays both external and LAN content without any issues or interruptions 24x7
    • Although roon server down converts all external qobuz content greater than 44.1 kHz 16 bit, there are no issues playing
    • No issues streaming local (LAN-local area network) content WAV at 1411kbps 44.1kHz 16bit
    • I cannot compliment the 17 year old Sonos endpoints more. They simply work without issues and are a benchmark for connectivity and sync. Unfortunately, they do not provide streaming beyond 44.1kHz 16bit. Sonos is missing a large market segment.

I contacted qobuz ((case number: 17448)) and SOtM (no case number).

I searched through the issues in the roon community, but did not find any with three (3) SOtM endpoints streaming qobuz HI-Res.

Thx
g

You might like to detail a bit more about the external network speed (speedtest.net) and also not that Qobuz has been having some issues (tho more library related) of late.

Also where you are streaming from Qobuz as some locations might be father from the music source.

Also what are your DNS and network settings for the ROCK core and router DHCP assignment for DNS too.

Wizardofoz,
Thanks for your help.

  • External network speed
    I updated and most likely is not the bottleneck. There were no issues prior to June. What changed? A new DAC and updates to the SOtM endpoint firmware and kernel done at the request of SOtM.

  • From where I am streaming?
    I am streaming less than 20 geographical miles from the Seattle Internap. Redmond, WA is less than 1 mile away. There are some very large pipes into this area with MSFT next door and AMZN a stones throw away. Yet, mileage may still vary, because qobuz is in France. I would hope that they would use GCP, AWS, or an equivalent local POP.
    Still, as a proxy, the Bank of France has an AS with the following ranges [91.220.246.0/24] (91.220.246.0/24 Netblock Details - Bred Banque Populaire - IPinfo.io). ICMP is not the same protocol for streaming, but at least it provides a point of reference from a likely gateway: Reply from 91.220.246.1: bytes=32 time=165ms TTL=240. I know that latency greater than 200ms for VoIP is noticeable. Providing qobuz does not have a local POP, 165ms is adequate for streaming from that geo.

  • What specific DNS and network settings for the ROCK core and DHCP assignment for DNS are your referring please? Thanks.
    Since I built the roon system 3 years ago, nothing has changed in the settings for DNS, DHCP, and the network settings. The issues started after the firmware and kernel upgrades to the SOtM endpoints.

And my reference for connectivity, reliability, and availability Sonos Connect endpoints? Even as I type this the ROCK keeps downloading qobuz CD and HI-Res streams and distributing them to the Connect endpoints 24x7 without interruption, drops, or issues. I’ve even physically disconnected the Sonos endpoints from the LAN and tried the SOtMs. The SOtMs still suffered from the same issues. :frowning:

I’ve spent 10 times more time troubleshooting the SOtM endpoints during the last year, than building anything else in the roon system. Standalone they might be okay, but zoned . . . I don’t know. It is looking more and more like the SOtM sMS NEO devices are the issue. After $2100 for three of them I am close to cutting my losses and chucking them in the dustbin.

Thx again for reaching out,
g

Are you using ISP provided or more (perhaps reliable) google or cloud flare (8.8.8.8 / 1.1.1.1 respectively) for DNS.

If streaming CD quality is fine and its only HighRes the issue then perhaps its bandwidth (propagation too) related.

But as you noted if this is all about what you described as SOtM updates - perhaps it is just that. Can you downgrade to the previous versions? IIRC its possible with SOtM to do this.

8.8.8.8 and 75.75.75.75 resolution and connectivity to Qobuz or anything else do not appear to be an issue.

Both CD and Hi-Res are an issue for SOtM. Hi-Res is simply more pronounced for SOtM. For the Sonos Connects neither rates are an issue.

I was mulling over that last week. I will ask SOtM, if I can rollback the firmware and kernel. If available, they might want me to roll-forward. Ugh, ah no thanks. The juice ain’t worth the squeeze.

Regardless of outcome, I think that the SOtMs are on the shortlist. I am gun-shy trying anything else, e.g. Sonore ($3800), etc. because standalone performance is not the same as zoning. I might try three (3) Allo Usbridges that way I am under $2000 in costs.

I know that Sonos uses STP and that’s a huge advantage. Most streaming services (roon did in the past) use multicast. I don’t know if roon still uses multicast. A lot of routers block the latter. If SOtM has not focused on zoning, then that could be part of the issue. If they are multicasting among their 3 devices in my LAN, then they are most likely bridge looping a ton of traffic that builds and creates latency on the LAN. They should use STP, like Sonos. That is why Sonos just works. Still, I am not going to dev test their issues.

I have 7 endpoints in my LAN, and until SOtM arrived connectivity was not an issue. I don’t think that many OEMs have thought through or developed software with more than one or two endpoints in a LAN. Oy vey.

I went out on a limb and submitted a request to Sonos engineering for four (4) custom built USB 768kPCM/512DSD endpoints with LPS or choked to death PS equivalents for use with external DACs. At least I know that they own the game on sync and connectivity.

Personally I am not a Sonos fan but have many endpoints in the house either Lumin (3) or Ropieee RPi to hats/dacs various with no issues however I dont often stream as grouped if thats what you are doing wrt sync comments.

I am with you and definitely not a Sonos fan. Yet, their stuff just works, like nothing else does. Let me be clear though–my ownership is limited to only the Sonos Connects, which are endpoints. Sonos with STP owns the book on connectivity for sure.

“I dont often stream as grouped if thats what you are doing”
Yes, streaming as groups or zones is what I am doing. I discovered that although they can, the majority of people do not zone. So, most people will not experience the issues that exist with 6 or more devices in a zone. In a multicast environment the traffic can get verbose.

That’s why I opted for the Connects for years. I am not a fan, but endpoint choices that actually work under my conditions are limited. I should work a deal with OEMs, i.e. if they fail to zone in a multiple endpoint LAN, I get a refund.

Zoning is a completely different set of specifications and requirements for OEMs. I suspect that they overlook it, because they are playing the percentages.

I have two (2) high-end systems and five (5) lesser mid-fi systems that I fire-up and run all day.

The valve/tube stuff gets powered down at the end of the day, but the sand silicon (solid state) equipment gets muted only.

I must be eccentric. :slight_smile:

Perhaps but not unique - I do run grouped zones but all my endpoints are RAAT ready and while its not normally more than 2-3 zones in a group - its not an all day thing, mainly when I am A/B comparing DACs or just want some continuity when roaming about the house.

Given its coming off of a weekend support might take a few days to chime in - but just be patient as the support queues tent to choke up a bit over a weekend.

at least its working for the most part on single nodes?

The Allo Usbridge endpoints look promising and are a variation on your Ropieee RPi to hats. I will try them, because I sincerely do not want to waste anymore time with SOtM. I had issues with one of the three SOtM endpoints one year ago, and it took them months to correct.

Single nodes? No, unfortunately. Any of the SOtMs standalone work for a few minutes, then fail making me rollback to the lesser Connects (44.1 x 16).

I simply want to put the issue to bed and move on to focus on other hobbies and obligations.

Thanks very much for your input and help.

g

1 Like

I have and use two SOtM sMS-200 regularly, both on firmware v 0.5.1
I also use Qobuz Sublime+ but don’t see the same issues, however. Do you apply the same settings for buffer and delay (in Roon config in Eunhasu)?
I do not group endpoints though.

Another frequent SOtM issue is that the SF cards seem to go corrupt every now and then. And re-imaging them can be a bit of a pain as the delivery speed for data from SOtM really sucks and their choice of image format really weird.
I’d recommend a re-imaging on one of these SD cards, to make sure your troubles aren’t due to their flaky upgrade methods.

Please note, when working they re very stable and sound very good!

Another question, do they stream properly when you are playing back local content?

Mikael_Ollars,
Thank you very much for diving in and providing suggestions.

All three (3) of my SOtM sMS 200 endpoints are grouped and zoned just like the four (4) Sonos Connect endpoints running 24 hrs/day. Unfortunately, the SOtM devices no longer run standalone or grouped and experience dropouts, skipping tracks, and stopping. The issues started across all three (3) SOtM endpoints after upgrading at SOtM’s direction to firmware Version Number : V0.5.1 and kernel version : 4.18.19-224.fc27.armv7hl.

“Do you apply the same settings for buffer and delay (in Roon config in Eunhasu)?”
Yes. From above in this thread, " * SOtM suggested adjusting the roon configuration for buffer and sync, but none of that helped." I spent hours with various combinations with no change in SOtM malfunctioning.
Also the roon kb states, “The resync delay setting can help when dropouts occur near the beginning of playback.” I don’t have issues at the beginning.

“I’d recommend a re-imaging on one of these SD cards, to make sure your troubles aren’t due to their flaky upgrade methods.”
Thanks for the suggestion. That did not resolve the SOtM endpoint issues.

As stated above, I am not a Sonos fan, but do have four (4) 17 year old Connect endpoints that work flawlessly without issues in the roon system. Roon finds them in seconds and there are no dropouts, etc. The ROCK will download Hi-Res data from qobuz (despite the error messages that qobuz is loading slowly, it does not appear that qobuz is an issue) and down converts to 44.1 x16 bit and forwards the stream to the Sono endpoints. No issues.

“I do not group endpoints though.”
That is an instant and real game changer. I am on another planet at that point. I have seven (7) endpoints and all work 24 x7 except for the SOtM endpoints after the upgrade.

The issues are somewhere between the ROCK and SOtM endpoints If multicast is used, then that protocol is suspect, because it will create a broadcast storm bringing that segment to a halt.

From wiki, " A switching loop or bridge loop occurs in computer networks when there is more than one layer 2 path between two endpoints (e.g. multiple connections between two network switches or two ports on the same switch connected to each other). Since the layer-2 header does not include a time to live (TTL) field, if a frame is sent into a looped topology, it can loop forever."

“Another question, do they stream properly when you are playing back local content?”
Local is only 44.1 x 16 uncompressed WAV files. SOtM endpoints crash eventually. The Brand X endpoints work flawlessly on an STP mesh.

Eighteen years ago, I attempted to install a Logitech Squeezebox that used a multicast protocol in a star topology. Despite their engineering and tech support, it did not work with my desired 3 endpoints at that time. When Sonos developed their STP and mesh topology, I jumped on it and it’s worked without issues for 17 years. The downsides are 44.1x16, no USB, etc.

“Please note, when working they re very stable and sound very good!”
Yes. I could not agree more. They sound great . . . when they work. The latter is the problem-they must work to sound good. And the SOtM endpoints are very problematic.

Grouping in roon or zoning as it is referred to elsewhere is an entirely different animal with a unique set of challenges. I get a lot of really helpful suggestions from users and OEMs, but no one seems to run 7 endpoints in two groups all playing at the same time 24hrs/day and 7days/week. The minute I mention grouping or zoning everyone gets taciturn, and I receive a lot of blank stares at that point. I am beginning to sense that the technology is lagging my use case scenarios, i.e. pushing Hi-Res streams to 7 endpoints with more in the future.

I mute the solid state and power down the tube/valve equipment at night. I leave all solid state systems playing even when I am gone on business or holidays.

Overall, all very good suggestions, and thanks again,
g
(yes. I am eccentric with 7 endpoints :slight_smile: )

Thank you for your elaborate feedback! :slight_smile:
This paragraph above confused me somewhat though. You realize that the Eunhasu settings are done in the eunhasu.local web GUI, under Roon Settings. (i use 0.2sec for buffer and 0.5sec for sync) And the Roon settings are in Roon under Setup-Audio for each zone?
Have you tried also resetting each Audio zone setting to default in Roon?

I also noted that you have a slightly newer Kernel version in your SOtMs, mine is running build 221 rather than 224.

Your paragraph regarding networking loops is also relevant, but you didn’t change anything, did you? The only change is SOtM upgrade? The problem trace should be obvious then! :wink:

Still, do you have a system overview of your setup? That could help both @support and us users understanding your topology better!

1 Like

@racingdriver have you tried to download the latest firmware from SOtM and re-flash one of the SD cards?

I used to own SOtM gear, I write used as I got so sick of there firmware issues that I sold it. As @Mikael_Ollars writes when it works it is really nice equipment but to me that is just not enough it needs to work all the time.

I was in contact with SOtM many times and tried many things but nothing solved the issues with SD cards going bonkers and that it was not visible on the network.

1 Like

I used to have SMS-200 and didnt have any issues (just the one tho) but sold as I moved to Lumin D1/D2 streaming devices so no need for USB connections. Doesn’t help much but the Allo stuff is also reliable too from all accounts. I used their Sparky based products years ago - still have one somewhere I think.

Have you tried setting the maximum resolution on all of your endpoints to 16/44.1?

You might not have enough network capacity to stream to each endpoint at the same time beyond that which is why Sonos works and the SOtM does not. I’d try that first. You could try streaming to 1 SOtM for a while, then add another, then another, until you get to a point where it fails. Again, you may simply not have enough network to support that many endpoints at once. Roon sends a separate unicast TCP stream to end endpoint. It is not multicast (if using RAAT).

It should also be noted that Sonos sets-up its own mesh network between speakers so Sonos network capacity cannot be compared to RAAT.

This is confusing. Unless you really understand ethernet L2 topologies there should be a single (1) L2 path to every device on your LAN. Care to share your switch deployments and what is connected to what? Creating any kind of loop in ethernet can go bad very quickly if not configured for such things.

One other thing of note. Roon can only group like protocols. Meaning, Sonos to Sonos, RAAT to RAAT, Airplay to Airplay, etc. You mentioned a few times about vendors and “if they use”. It’s not the vendor selecting the streaming protocol (except in the case of Sonos). It is what you enable in Settings → Audio. If you enabled the SOtM devices as Roon endpoints (RAAT) then they are using RAAT to stream. Same as any other RAAT endpoint and certainly not something specific to SOtM. Switching to Allo or any other RAAT based device will not change what lands on the wire. I’m not saying there isn’t something wrong with the SOtM, based on your previous issue there may very well be, but thought I’d point out that going to another RAAT based endpoint won’t change the network traffic.

1 Like

“You realize that the Eunhasu settings are done in the eunhasu.local web GUI, under Roon Settings. (i use 0.2sec for buffer and 0.5sec for sync) And the Roon settings are in Roon under Setup-Audio for each zone?”
Yes. I’ve been there and done the preceding that multiple times. I am at the point, where I am getting too familiar with all the settings.

Yes. I have the latest firmware and kernel at the direction of SOtM. Three days ago, I asked them about multicasting, and I have not received an acknowledgment or response. I am beginning to suspect that the SOtM sMS NEOs are on the shortlist. You are correct though, because they sound great when working. The latter is the issue. :frowning:

"Your paragraph regarding networking loops is also relevant, but you didn’t change anything, did you? The only change is SOtM upgrade? "
No changes to my LAN equipment or topology. Yes. the only change was the SOtM directed upgrade.

I have a network diagram, but it is a few years old and hopelessly outdated. It is important to note though that the four (4) Brand X STP meshed endpoints work and have worked flawlessly and without issues in the same LAN for almost two decades. Quite a statement that.

1 Like

Hi ipeverywhere,
QQ:
For how many years have you grouped/zoned more than 3 devices, and what OEM and model please?
I would like to know, because if it worked for you it will likely work for me. My issues appeared to start after the OEM directed me to upgrade the firmware and kernel. In addition, standalone works as long as there are no other SOtMs on the network.

If a user is not grouping/zoning, then they will probably not experience my issues.

“Have you tried setting the maximum resolution on all of your endpoints to 16/44.1?”
Yes, thanks from “Max bits per sample” of 16 bits and “Max sample rate (PCM)” of 48kHz (48 lowest setting for SOtM) and every increment up. All three devices still stop within a few.

“You might not have enough network capacity to stream to each endpoint at the same time beyond that which is why Sonos works and the SOtM does not.”
True. At this point I would believe that anything is possible.
My network is CAT 6 Ethernet only and does not have any issues streaming video. Years ago, someone told me that video required more bandwidth than audio, but then things change. Does 192kHzx24bit require more bandwidth than video these days? I don’t know the answer to that.

The switches are unmanaged and that’s also what roon recommends. The monitoring framework indicates headroom averaging ~462Mbps during max use. Do I need more than 1G for streaming audio, and do you recommend replacing everything with 10G or . . . ? I am unsure that would help the SOtMs.

“It’s not the vendor selecting the streaming protocol (except in the case of Sonos)”
Sonos worked well for 17 years. And the SOtM devices should also, but they don’t. If is not the vendor setting the network protocol, as stated, and it is roon then where does one set the network protocol in roon to STP for SOtM?

“It is what you enable in Settings → Audio.”
There are not many parameters to enable or disable in Settings → Audio.
Here is a Connect with virtually zero settings that simply works all the time.

image

“It’s not the vendor selecting the streaming protocol (except in the case of Sonos).”
Here’s is an SOtM with defaults that works for a while, then drops, skips, and stops.
If it is not the vendor, then where in the following location does one set the network protocol in roon?


" One other thing of note. Roon can only group like protocols. Meaning, Sonos to Sonos,"
Yes. Thanks, knew that. I’ve grouped for 3 years with roon and 17 years with Sonos. How many devices are you grouping and for how many years?

“You mentioned a few times about vendors and “if they use”. It’s not the vendor selecting the streaming protocol (except in the case of Sonos).”
Implying that if all devices used STP like Sonos, then it would eliminate the use of other protocols as a root cause. If it is not the vendor, then where in roon do I change the network protocol to STP for SOtM?

“. . . point out that going to another RAAT based endpoint won’t change the network traffic.”
Yes. I was leaning that direction, and thanks for confirming. Yet, going to another RAAT-based endpoints might change the network traffic if they group without conflict, and do not have bad firmware or kernel upgrades. I will need to vet them on trial first.

Test 1.

  1. ROCK connected directly to router → modem → ISP
  2. Removed 2 out of 3 SOtM devices leaving one SOtM → switch → router
  3. Applied defaults 768/32
  4. Results no skips, etc. no issues
    image

Test 2.

  1. ROCK connected directly to router → cable modem → ISP
  2. Removed 1 out of 3 SOtM leaving two (2) SOtM devices → same switch → router
  3. Applied defaults 768/32
  4. Results skips, drops, and stops

My guess, as good as anyone’s:

  1. Bad firmware and kernel code upgraded two weeks ago
  2. SOtM or roon has issues with grouping/zoning more than one SOtM (yet this only started 2 weeks ago) - see preceding.

Not that I want to spend more money, but in this case it is possible that a different vendor could yield different and better results. That vendor would need to work in a multiple endpoints group/zone.

Man, I’ve spent waaaaay too much time on this issue without resolution. With my time I’ve bought the 3 SOtMs ($2100) at least 5 to 10 times over.

After 17 years successfully zoning 4 Sonos endpoints together with 3 years grouping in roon, I understand that all endpoints in a group/zone must be the same OEM and model. I have 4 Sonos that work well and 3 SOtM that work only one device at a time and will not group/zone. Yet, the latter did group without issues until two weeks ago.

I really don’t know what to do other than ask SOtM for a rollback to earlier firmware and kernel code. Kinda of fed up actually.

From earlier in the thread,
"Fredrik_Andersson,
I used to own SOtM gear, I write used as I got so sick of there firmware issues that I sold it.”

I am ready to take all three SOtMs to a open field and implement an Office Space repair solution.

Open to suggestions and recommended replacement endpoints from the community that have a working history of being grouped with 3 or more devices 24x7 .

Question
I would like to know please, if there is a member that has grouped/zoned at least 3 endpoints running Hi-Res (768k/512DSD USB) audio up and running successfully daily without issues for more than one year. If so, what are your endpoints in your group please?

Thanks for your help, Unfortunately, I still have 3 SOtM devices that will not work in a group/zone without dropping, skipping, and stopping.
g

1 Like

Fredrik_Andersson,
Thanks for your help.

“. . . have you tried to download the latest firmware from SOtM and re-flash one of the SD cards?”
Yes. Thanks. Did exact that and upgraded at the direction of SOtM two weeks ago. That’s when the issues started.
image

“I used to own SOtM gear, I write used as I got so sick of there firmware issues that I sold it.”
Yep. I could not agree more.:slight_smile:

“I was in contact with SOtM many times and tried many things but nothing solved the issues with SD cards going bonkers and that it was not visible on the network.”
Yep. Identical issues here. They disappear for no reason and require cold boots. And I own 3 of the devices. Three times the issues.

Curious? What was the the SOtM replacement?

thx
g

Not sure why you have a different kernel than me?


I just downloaded the current 0.5.1 firmware from SOtM’s Google Drive, and re-flashed a spare 32Gb MicroSD.
Please give this a try on one of your sMS-200, and then DONT push the Kernel Check button.
(A side note, i use Balena Etcher for flashing the Micro SD, means you dont have to download some malware zip utility just to get going)

I bought a dCS Network Bridge.

At first the original 8GB SD card got so corrupted that it did not work at all. May at SOtM suggested that I got a 16GB class 10 SD card and I bought that and did the re-flash with Etcher like @Mikael_Ollars do.

I cant remeber exactly for how long it was fine but then some day it was lost in Roon and I could not access it via the GUI. Re-flash the card and it was fine again, I ended up having a spare card with the latest FW so I could do the swap as soon as it happened.

May at SOtM did some remote checking and I sent lots of files when the sMS was lost but they could not find what was causing it to do like this.

I loaded it with a old firmware that I know worked ok for a longer time and sold it with all the spare SD cards.

I have owned the dCS for almost 2 years, they have done two software upgrades and the app and GUI works flawless.