WiFi Router Recommendations?

Roon Software Discussion
103

I don’t disagree that may be sufficient for people who live in large houses. In my location it is common to see two dozen different APs from neighbours with random auto overlapping 2.4GHz channels. You can can fix your own WiFi channel, but once a few neighbor routers decide to change their channels randomly at random times, the setup will no longer work, not even for basic internet connectivity.

And by the way, if you’re using an Asus, you’re not using a Nighthawk (Netgear).

If you’re using a Nighthawk, you’re not using an Asus.

I’m using a Netgear R7000 router with third party firmware based on Asus codebase, because the Netgear firmware just did not work well enough for my requirements.

If one needs to connect more than 10 WiFi devices, some consumer WiFi routers may not be suitable.

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104

I live in a predominantly apartment based country…SIngapore is small and densely populated - not as bad as HongKong or some other asian cities but still up there.

my network was really impossible to deal with for a single consumer setup that would work in most single dwelling homes as you would find in the USA or Australia or NZ etc (places which I am familiar with) and the physical construction is very heavily reinforced and solid think concrete walls and floors/ceilings.

here is what I have from my Unifi insights screen details…top level only

Nearby access points seen in the last hour!!! a lot are even things like car dash cameras
:roll_eyes:

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Last 7 days is insane :crazy_face:

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Then there are my own devices…that can top up to 50+ or so with guests and other devices that currently not powered up.

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Note that consumer router/wifi/switch devices are built to a minimal price point and it is this that determines how much reliability, coverage and manageability is provided - forgetting about support for the moment. For some this will be adequate, and for others this will be nothing close to what they should be using if their home is such that wall penetration for wifi is not ideal and home size and devices are not minimal. As always YMMV but I can never go back to a consumer network setup.

105

I think you are still missing the critical point. You have not solved the problem of channel overlap just by getting an 802.11.ac router, and if you need to upgrade that router with third party firmware to get it to work for you, then you are enjoying a hobby, not solving a problem. And, it doesn’t matter whether the router is Netgear or Asus, I bought and tried them both, they are both consumer gamer quality hardware which may have the very latest high speed chip set, but were rushed to market with poor software to satisfy the wannabe faster gamers. If you need to use third party software to get a router to work, then it’s a bad router.

For now, 5ghz routers are fewer in the wild than 2G routers, see Mr. Fix It’s screen shots as a good example, 980 2 ghz access points versus 75 5 ghz. So, buying a 5 ghz router may solve a channel overlap problem until more people go out and buy 5g 802.11.ac routers. 5ghz n or ac routers do not solve the problem, and as illustrated by this article may even introduce new issues in a signal crowded environment.

There is too much for me to digest in this article, but I think it definitively suggests that a solution to channel crowding when using 802.11.n or 802.11. ac routers requires clever configuration, versus chasing consumer brand names or the latest claims of speed or bandwidth. This is where I strongly object to the quality of Roons support documentation. They have taken a lazy way out of the question and sprinkled some techno babble and marketing speak over it.

I have been impressed with the Unifi access point software of the Unifi AP I installed at work. It appears well done, but I have not studied mesh networking at all. I have avoided it like the plague since it looked like a channel congestion nightmare and just getting wifi to work reliably in a very simple configuration with various devices was problematic.

But, as suggested by Mr. Fix It., these newer mesh network devices may really be a clever solution to the problem of channel congestion. Just seeing the admin consoles in the Unifi device I bought, the documentation, and now Mr. Fix It’s screenshots, tempt me to be optimistic about a solution.

Otherwise, my hypothesis is the same. Avoid the Roon advice about network hardware and do not buy gamer quality hardware, like the Asus or Netgear. I have tested them both. Start with small business class hardware from folks like Cisco, and if that doesn’t work then move up to true business class hardware. I can’t prove this is the best strategy, but I offer it as an alternative I have tested and as counterweight to the premise that total throughput or signal speed is the problem.

Better business class routers may require a user to do some configuration of basic network services like DHCP, DNS, NAT, etc., but unlike consumer grade hardware, they are pretty much all configured the same way following IEEE standards. This stuff has been around a long time. Within the major brands, cheat sheets for configuration of hardware could be shared to help folks do a proper configuration. I do not think sharing the latest firmware hack to get gamer hardware to work is a good path for a serious implementation of audio, or even average end user experience. I am very disappointed in Roon Labs for going down this path with their recommendation. I imagine this was delegated to support employees and done hastily to try to stem the tied of user complaints over network issues, which may be inevitable, but it’s just not good enough for a product as fantastic as Roon player.

I think the Roon software is astounding and appears very clever. My speculation is that by clever use of the TCP/IP or other protocols available today and streaming content to players in an efficient way, does not require a large amount of high gross bandwidth. But rather might require a reliable, low latency connection with minimal bottlenecks and congestion. My basic premise to offer, is that congestion on a network has more to do with the traffic you put on it and the configuration of that network, than it does the speed of individual components on that network, and certainly channel congestion is really not about speed, but it is about configuration.

106

Two things, Roon are not selling a network product or supporting you in setting up a network wifi or otherwise. All you say may well be correct, but it is beyond the scope of what Roon is offering to sort out your LAN for you or understand what your neighbours are running etc.

Secondly re 2.4GHz wifi, interference it isnt just a matter of overlapping channels and multiple routers in close proximity to each other. 2.4GHz is also trampled all over by things like microwave ovens, anything with an electric motor particularly vacuum cleaners, Bluetooth devices, car alarms and some cordless phones.

So if you can use 5GHz (which is less penetrative than 2.4GHz) then you should.

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107

Of course Roon is a “network product”. It is a collection of software applications designed and sold to to transport audio over a network typically a LAN, but also aggregating or curating content and providing transport of audio streaming sources from the internet. I guess you could run Roon Core, Bridge, and Remote all on one machine without Tidal, etc. and then it’s not a network product, but then what’s the point?

I don’t expect Roon to troubleshoot or setup my LAN, I expect them to provide typical technical information about what their network application requires, from the network. This would typically be described in terms of network protocols like TCP, HTTP, UDP, multicast, unicast, etc. Roon says they use RAAT. Which is meaningless since it is proprietary.

This is a bit much, but see this example of a description someone provided to explain the network protocols and bandwidth requirements of Netflix.

But, okay, I get it, RAAT is the secret sauce, and Roon appears to work across a wide range of hardware and configurations without any special measures required so I really don’t need to know the tech specs on Roon networking.

But, I do object to some of Roons networking recommendations. For example they say “so at this point, 802.11n routers should be considered obsolete”. That’s really total BS.

You even point to some of the flaws here. You say 5 ghz “is less penetrative”. You’re right! And guess what, that means that a 5ghz wifi router isn’t as good at getting a good radio signal through the walls of my house. I don’t live in an apartment, I live on 5 acres. I’d rather have a more penetrative signal, for my purposes. 802.11a/b/c, have greater range, so in some situations a slower, longer wavelength radio signal could be helpful. And, going up to 5 ghz. is not the only way to find free channels, you could also go below 2.5 ghz.

Having a good, solid wifi radio signal, without interference, without channel interference is more important than speed, in my opinion. Good chance I’m wrong, but someone needs to tell the emperor he’s naked.

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108

Yes apologies, I meant to say ‘network device’.

Roon are telling you what other users have reported as being successful. YMMV. Hauling Roon over the coals because your mileage does vary is not really fair.

5GHz is better than 2.4GHz accepting the caveat that it is less penetrative. Of course you may need that additional penetration so you have to use 2.4 but you will potentially suffer with greater issues related to interference etc. Absolutely nothing Roon can do or say to change that.

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Yup. Agreed.

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Sorry, just to clarify further. I agree that Roon is not responsible for my network setup. But, that is why it is important to provide clear, accurate, technical specifications for the network requirements. This is not easy, it would require a very good experienced network engineer who understands the Roon software and the marketplace for networking equipment to make a brand generic by technically specific recommendation that end users can use when shopping for and setting up a network.

By specifying specific router brands, and only one brand of router, as a recommended hardware solution for wireless streaming, Roon has put itself on the hook to answer for many networking issues they may have no control over. Your phrase YMMV is very important, Roon has all but elminated the possibility of using that phrase credibly.

Let’s just say I go out and buy the latest Asus router Roon recommends. And I get it home and it doesn’t work. Now I’m pretty disappointed with Roon’s advice. I am jumping the gun here since I am complaining in advance of using the advice based on past, probably obsolete experience, but you get my point.

When Roon suggests in the later portions of it’s tech note (if I can call it that) that mesh networks can be used to good effect, they make sure to mention multiple brands of hardware. That is better, but the recommendation is so generic as to be relatively useless from a technical point of view.

I am rooting for Roon, they have done so much that is so excellent. But, I have seen this before where very good software is handled poorly from a support and documentation standpoint. This may just be accepted practice at this point. And, due to the vagaries of using Wifi for streaming I am concerned they could be overwhelmed with support requests if they do not take a different route.

I admit I may be totally wrong in this. There was a study done by Harvard Business Review a long time ago where they measured user satisfaction of a PC application, then they went out and trained the users on the application. The training caused the user satisfaction to actually go down since users expectations of the application went up after learning more about it. So, more information can cause support requests to go up. It is a very difficult problem to address.

But consider that some home audio professionals may want to setup Roon for their clients. They may be building and configuring a home audio network for a client. You would be amazed at what rich people put in their homes. Those professional installers could certainly use better technical information and would be able to configure professional grade networking gear. But, pro home audio installers might be such a small market for Roon that it’s not worth supporting fuller.

I am very happy with my Cisco router that solved all of my home Wifi issus, and I have a brand new Netgear 802.11.ac and Asus 802.11.ac that I will throw in the trash. It’s been some years since I did that little project, but I think my advice and warning is still valid. End users and Roon might not want to put all their eggs into the Asus home gamer router basket. There are other approaches. At a minimum it looks very salesly and technically shallow, or even down right suspicious. Why just Asus? Why that brand?

I’ve learned a lot from this discussion though. I’m very intrigued by Mr. Fix It’s information about the Ubi mesh ap’s and routers. I have one Ubi ap at work and I was very impressed. There may be something about the mesh protocol that really assists channel congesion and the Ubi routers appear to be very powerful. I doubt a router that can support many ap’s is going to choke on too many devices in the home. It is a fundamental paradigm shift away from the line of sight gamer router.

Jame

111

This is inaccurate, there are no brand recommendations in the KB article. Points such as ‘We recommend enabling “Enable Multicast Routing” option in settings.’ is based on experience of that particular product with Roon, and is neither an endorsement nor a recommendation to buy that product.

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112

True, but a distinction without a difference. You’re correct the recommendation does not technically occur in the Knowledge Base, but instead in a blog about Wifi networking. Given the paucity of technical information available, I don’t think it’s a stretch to hold Roon accountable for technical information appearing in the blod as well.

See the Blog entry here:

Which contains this:

Ditch the cable company special for one of these high performance routers from ASUS:

Router Model 802.11ac Throughput LAN Ports Price
ASUS RT-AC88U Yes 2100 Mbps 8 See on Amazon
ASUS RT-AC5300 Yes 5334 Mbps 8 See on Amazon
ASUS RT-AC68U Yes 1900 Mbps 5 See on Amazon
113

And, yes there is some good troubleshooting information in the KB article. But, instead of writing a KB article as a collection of tips, and then following on with Blog entry to fill in the gaps, why not write a true Requirements document saying what’s required of the network.

An astute observer could intuit that Roon will use Multicast, but why bury that requirement in a set of tips? That’s a key piece of network configuration that would be included in a proper requirements specification. Someone might also want to know if UDP is being used. That is sometimes locked down, but likely already open for NAS, I don’t know.

Most home routers have everything wide open enabled, so it’s really not much of problem. But, if someone has hardened their router for security, or to minimize broadcast traffic from chatty windows PC’s, then, they’d need to open some stuff up.

That’s really at the core of network performance problems. Eliminating junk on the network is a key to getting good performance, but this can also mean that problems occur with the apps you want to have access to certain protocols. The same is true of the Server, Core and Bridge hardware. I found a really good configuration guide for the Mac Mini on another website to disable all the unnecessary processes running on the machine. That’s all that’s happening on these NUCS and Rocks or whatever black box hardware is being marketed. Okay, their Linux and not MacOS (Unix), but really it’s all intel chipset motherboards, so let’s get over it.

Roon is a different kind of company that most audio companies, much better. So, let’s see continued greatness, break the mold. Don’t give in to the temptation to hide the technical bits about RAAT like some secret streaming audio sauce. Anyone with a decent sniffer can sort that out, and will. The rest of us would like to know how to make the best of Roon.

114

I’m not sure where you’re going with this, but I suspect most users don’t care much about multicast or network protocols. They simply want plug and play, and that’s what they get with a properly functioning home network. When there are problems support is here: the KB and forum.

I’d like to think that someone who has hardened their network knows what they’re doing. Nonetheless, here are the ports Roon uses:

  • UDP 9003
  • TCP 9100:9200

For example,

sudo ufw allow proto udp to any port 9003 from 192.168.1.0/24
sudo ufw allow proto tcp from any to any port 9100:9200

Support is never far away when a problem is clearly articulated.

115

Thanks for the port information, I think some users might find it useful.

Curious, what is a “properly functioning home network”? I’ve never met one.

They all function properly until you start to use them. They all break at some point. The same users who want plug and play, may also have other devices and applications in their network. Many of these devices are doing nasty things to the network all on their own. Ever heard of “the internet of things”?

I don’t buy the ingorance is bliss paradigm of network management.

Ultimately all users of a home network will need to implement Quality of Service (QOS) on their network, regardless of hardware. This might mean telling their wife not to download YouTube videos while they are listening to Tidal over Roon, or using the QOS features of their router, if it has them.

It looks like most routers are either doing QOS by designation of the LAN port or by being application aware. I thought they might use protocol or socket ports, but that appears not useful.

For example see here a good explanation of using QOS on the gamer Asus router and using a third party linux kernel for popular routers. Evidently some folks on this thread are also using third party firmware to good effect and may have more QOS features than the stock configuration.

The application aware implementation of QOS is even more evident looking at the Cisco implementations. Cisco systems is the gold standard for this stuff.

Notice that this particular version of Cisco firmware is documented to explicity support QOS of Spotify streams. I could not find Tidal or Roon in this particular release. See details of Spotify protocols here:

I don’t know where I am going either, but I think “most users” and Roon might beneift from being aware of QOS and how it can be used in the home network to improve results with Roon. I don’t know about most users, but I think many users will have very busy home networks and this will be a problem for Roon streaming.

Furthermore, I think Roon should be recommending routers that have proper support for QOS, ideally explicitly supported at the application layer. And should proactively seek to have major router mfg’s include their RAAT protocol in their QOS suppor. In my opinion this will serve you better than recommending gamer routers with good line of site bandwidth specs.

But, hey, it’s you’re rodeo. I’m sure most users can “clearly articulate” their network problem for easy solution. Good luck with that.

But back to the OP’s original question for a router recommendation. I have provided my recommendation and explained what I think is important in a router and recommendation. I think good router software with the right configuration including QOS is more important that line of site wireless bandwidth and I think Roon should provide the basic requirements specifications to achieve that configuration.

I think that specifying a particular brand of router is also the wrong way to answer the question. At a minimum several brands or models should be recommended to fit a criteria. But, okay, if the only criteria is that a wireless router is 802.11.ac and 5 ghz, which they all have, then I guess just mentioned one router is better than listed the 100’s of routers that meet that criteria.

But, if instead you could understand which routers might support QOS of Roon, or which ones have other management features that are IEEE compliant for QOS, or to some other industry recognized best practice, then you could narrow that list.

But, again, do it your way. If most users are happy with the routers you recommend, and plug and play works all the time, then by all means, you should ignore everything I have to say.

Jamie

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116

I finally got rid of all my Orbi networking equipment (awful), and replaced it with a Unifi setup.

The Ubiquiti gear is really excellent. And, no more Roon dropouts.

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117

Great choice. I use all unifi gear – firewall/router, switches, aps… Excellent stuff and rock solid.

118

I run a Synology RT2600ac that was initially paired with TP-Link Wi-Fi extenders and lost connectivity every 1-2 days (mostly due to my stubborn insistence on not naming separate networks, the extenders would log in to each other and die). When I finally decided to ditch the extenders and go with a mesh product I added a Linksys Velop (in bridge mode so I could keep the router). This configuration has been rock solid for the last 6 months or so. Trouble-free Roon plus 3 wireless security cameras plus gaming/Netflix streaming. Just wanted to toss in a non-Unifi option.

119

Mesh wifi, I am using Google Wifi, it gets better all time.

120

I had a terrible couple of years with an Orbi + 2 satellites, but it has settled down now and has been rock solid for the last 2 or 3 updates, albeit in access point mode. I’m in an old 3 storey property with thick floors and high ceilings, and the daisy chaining on a dedicated backhaul channel works really well.

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121

I have posted several times both here and elsewhere that my Orbing and 2 satellites gave me innumerable issues for almost a year. About two months ago I switched over to a optical connection from my switch to a opticalModule just in front o\f my dCS Upsampler. The .5 meter is ethernet. That seems to have solved most of my issues. The Orbi was fine for everything in my home save for my audio. Now I have all the coverage and stability I require.

I will still state that Netgear’s Orbi support was probably the worst I have ever had to deal with on any product.

122

Hi, Just catching up on this thread.

Why not use the max bandwidth settings available on the AP for both 2.4G and 5G?

I run a Edimax WAP1750 with 3x3, and have set 40MHz on the 2.4G and Auto 80/40/20 on the 5G. I have set bandsteering to ‘5G first’, however what is a suitable RSSI threshold for 5G to 2.4G ‘hand-back’?