I’m guessing everyone should be happy with AM radio then?
I believe there are differences which isn’t to say that I believe they are great and as obvious as some claim on here. Then again I respect others opinions. Guess I live in a conundrum.
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It’s hard to argue with results like these:
I did a comparison last night. Airplay lossless (iPad Airplay to my Lyngdorf amp) vs wired lossy (AppleTV HD to Lyngdorf via HDMI). I compared the same source (Apple Music), a variety of music. I tried to do side-by-side comparison by switch the same song back and forth.
My equipment is Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 amp (supposed to have a great DAC) feeding into a pair of KEF Blade II (known for its neural and accurate sound).
Conclusion: I thought the lossless sounded a bit better. Instruments were better defined and more palpable. There seemed to be more space between instruments. The difference is subtle, and I’m sure I wouldn’t be able to correctly identify the music without a side-by-side comparison.
I’m well aware that this ‘difference’ could be imagined. Without blinded tests, I wouldn’t trust the results myself (I’m a scientist).
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It’s like a lot of things in my opinion. I don’t have the reflexes of racing drivers, the dexterity of a pianist. There are people tuned to hear differences, those with systems that help less able and those who think they ought to and those who just don’t care. I’m not too hung up on it as long as I’m enjoying the music and tapping my feet.
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I’m not too hung up on it as long as I’m enjoying the music and tapping my feet.
Exactly. Especially with so much music available now, I am more focused on music discovery than equipment discovery these days. But Apple Music’s lossless stream spells trouble for Roon (and Qobuz, for me) if they don’t support Apple Music soon. Also, I watch music videos on YouTube more and more now. This spells more trouble for Roon, unfortunately.
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Yes, that is complete ■■, as is your argument here. Martin, can you and Gary please refrain from creating straw man fallacies? Doing so does not bolster your stance.
AJ
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Assumption by yourself but don’t let the facts get in the way of a good rumour.
How do you know for a “FACT”? Did you do any blind, level matched, side by side testing? Or did you rely upon potentially specious auditory memory?
This is such a tired and false metaphor. The vehement subjectivists are effectively the “flat earth” believers. Because they seem to believe with a religious/mystical fervor that what they see, hear, feel, experience is “FACT.”
The “a lot of people are saying” tactic is not a logical form of argumentation either. Otherwise, many unsubstantiated claims about recent elections and the current pandemic would be considered “FACT.”
AJ
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I undertook the ‘Tune Dem’ method.
https://www.linn.co.uk/uk/tune-dem
Not blind, but it didn’t need to be 
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And if you were not aware, Linn’s quoted Ivor Tiefenbrun was a famously unreliable witness. He made many grand claims that he could not substantiate in testing. That calls into question his and Linn’s philosophies.
“A fighter pilot, sailor or artist is taught how to look, just like a musician or an audio engineer has to learn how to listen.”
Ivor Tiefenbrun MBE
In summary, then, no evidence was provided by Tiefenbrun during this series of tests that indicates ability to identify reliably:
(a) the presence of an undriven transducer in the room,
(b) the presence of the Sony PCM-F1 digital processor in the audio chain, or
(c) the presence of the relay contacts of the A/B/X switchbox in the circuit.
https://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing2.htm
AJ
This discussion exposes the main issues with any discussions around audiophile components. Everybody’s experiences are different, everybody’s hearing capabilities are different, everybody’s emotional response to music is different, and humans by design are prone to bias. That bias gets politicians who have no right to be, elected, and what allows products with a brand name, schools with big fee statements, and nice uniforms to be popular.
The critical issue here is the enjoyment of music, and it doesn’t matter if you can hear a difference or not. It does not change the personal experiences of the music at all. If putting a dusty grooved piece of plastic on a $10,000 spinning platter with gold plated wall plugs makes a difference, then so be it. Alternatively, if it is a crappy old party tape played on a mono tape deck, let it be. If it’s a computer file compressed, uncompressed, HiRes, if it does it for you, enjoy! I hear people on many forums gaslighting each other on hear saying, ‘well, if you can’t hear the difference, then that’s OK, I can, so I enjoy music more.’ Or, 'OH, god, can’t you hear the difference? That sucks; you’re missing out.
The whole lossless debate brings up the same audiophilia craze of equipment comparisons. I say enjoy the music. We are so lucky to have choices that suit all hearing capabilities. I believe that 100% of users are prone to bias in some way or another. ABX blind testing is the best way to pick it. Hell, this is why real science is peer-reviewed.
Let’s all calm down and enjoy the music.
Rant over!
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If the music to which these 2% are listening does not engage them enough, then they must listening to SQ. What is left for them…
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I tried comparing different lossy files to lossless years ago (only mp3). 320kbps files I struggled to tell the difference, and even now I’m not sure if it was more luck than judgement that let me correctly choose around 75% of the mp3s as the lossy versions.
Bitrates lower than that (still mp3, don’t forget) I could tell. However, I’ll still go for lossless where available as storage and bandwidth are cheap, and there’s always a remote possibility (unlikely, though, I think) that in the future I may pick up a piece of kit that makes the difference noticeable. If that does happen, I’ll be ready! 
Michael
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It probably has less to do with the HDCD format and more to do with the Pacific Microsonics ADC used to create them.
Perhaps not, but then again, SACD never took the market from the more pedestrian redbook CD’s primarily because of cost - both the medium itself and the hardware when introduced and so who knows? For “sit down” listening, I still prefer analog, hands down.
I worked with Eddy a bit when I was at Apple. My strong perception was that Eddy, like the rest of management including Cook and Jobs, had almost zero interest in music reproduction rather than content. I doubt he was interested enough in the topic of audio (as opposed to music) to have studied this issue with any precision and that his statement was as much about himself as anyone actually studied.
Cars, though. At least when I was at Apple, Eddy had a beauty.
All that said, I can’t tell a file’s properties on lower-cost equipment or, as I usually listen, with DSP enabled and everything upsampled to DSD256. I have heard mp3 and lossless A-B’ed and often (but not always) could tell the difference.
Saw this website on generating various levels of sonic distortion some time ago, seems like it is still there.
https://distortaudio.org/
Looks interesting, I have not had time to try it. With me running it, obviously it’s not blind testing, but seems like an interesting test of how much distortion I can hear.
Spatial audio is awful. 2 channel will always be top shelf. Who wants some suit with a computer manipulating tracks…
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I’ve heard this also. Cue is a deal man focused on marketing the product. If it’s ‘fit for purpose’ he’ll be good. Not surprising he sees lossless as a loss leader designed to get the punter into the ecosystem.
You completely missed the point here, although I appreciate the effort to make peace.
It’s not THOSE people in the forums, it’s the other way around, people who keep posting how something, anything cannot possibly make any difference, confirmation bias, ABX tests, hallucinations, etc etc.
I have never seen anyone posting something like what you describe. Can you point me to some proof on what you are saying? Thank you
Thank you.
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