RoonOS lacks a couple of things to actual make it an appliance, imho.
Requiring another computer to migrate files to the internal disk. Even my NAS has a one button click to copy from an attached USB drive to an internal drive. Something Roon should implement given how much of a pain it is for users to move music to a ROCK (or Nucleus) internal drive.
Warning indicators. I understand Roon’s concern, but, an appliance would post an error light or an error code. All it would take would be for RoonOS to post a colored Dot to indicate a thermal issue, or to indicate a low RAM issue. Instead, it just crashes without much of a reason why. (I can read an interpret the logs to see indicators but that goes against being easy to use). In addition, a user knowing that there is a thermal or memory problem can take steps to correct before filing an official support issue.
Power loss Database Corruption Prevention. Given that any sudden power loss can lead to database corruption, RoonOS should allow for an automated shutdown via UPS control using something like cupsd.
I think we’re now talking about appliance quality. Sure, some aspects could certainly be improved or included, but as I say, the baseline is good enough for me.
There was a long shopping list for RoonOS 2.0, which I think had all your suggestions on it, but in the event all we have got thus far in 2.1 is UEFI support…
I seriously doubt that would help. The symptoms you are experiencing are most common on Wi-Fi mesh networks. If you transition to Roon’s recommended network topology, your problems (at least those caused by networking) will vanish. Many thousands of Roon subscribers, including most on this thread, can attest to this.
Roon Server sends uncompressed PCM (or DSD) data to audio devices over the local network. This is completely different from devices that stream compressed data directly from the Internet.
Roon’s solution is better for more reasons than I can type just now with one thumb on my phone. But it comes at a cost: you need a home network that supports reliable, low latency communications among local devices…not just device-to-Internet. Roon is uncompromising in it’s approach, and many (most?) subscribers appreciate that fact.
Guess so. I still believe that my Synology is much more of an appliance – I never have to think about it , if I don’t want to, but if anything is up, it provides me with information I need to fix the issue.
That’s arguing about semantics, I think. So ROCK is a Linux distro with package manager (also) ripped out.
As far as I am concerned, DSM update on my NAS is also atomic (well, sure, you can sideload packages and what not, but you don’t have to). But it is still a customized Linux, and at least it keeps all the monitoring and management tools, if you care to look at them.
You could do that with any old Linux, too, no?
I would agree that many people have no business doing that . I would disagree that
it particularly lowers support costs (for one, you still have a significant portion of users running Roon on something else, and for another you create extra support load from all the things that can silently go wrong with ROCK that could have been prevented)…
Quite agree. Still. you have to run something or another, if you want to use Roon…
No, not really. First of all, ripping out a package manager does not give you atomic updates. Second, it removes a considerable source of errors. I have supported “regular” people with Linux for decades and sooner or later they all end up with broken dependencies and updates stuck.
Edit: „A Linux distribution“ is not a well-defined thing. I take it as referring to general-purpose ones like Ubuntu, Mint, or maybe Fedora. One could choose a very simple one instead, or one could make questionable choices like Audiolinux that might complicate things. However, I believe that making these choices is already a significant hurdle for many people.
And that’s fine, but this is totally different from a general-purpose Linux distro. The DSM people have much more control over a much smaller package pool than, say, Ubuntu.
I’ve seen Ubuntu with broken updates for something as simple as on one day some generic package had a dependency glitch during an autoupdate. Then you get a notification in the top menu bar with a red dot, and if you click that, it tells you to run dpkg --configure -a, which is typically ignored. And then no update within the APT package system ever happens until this is fixed.
I wondered long and often why I never had any Linux trouble and the people I support, with the same Ubuntu, have something to fix every time I did my support checks with them. Eventually I realized that something like this is fixed in a second by my fingers and barely registers in my brain. But if you don’t do it, APT is not functional at all. And that’s before we get into third-party repos for other stuff they might install.
You COULD but it would be prohibitively complex for many people. The difference with Roon OS is that it’s comparatively simple.
The fact that the support cost is not zero now does not mean that it wouldn’t be higher otherwise. I mean, I spend hours here handholding people through the process of typing into the correct box in Windows File Explorer.
Yes, and that’s why there is Nucleus and ROCK as two options with their pros and cons, and for the others there’s Linux Server, Win, and Mac with different pros and cons. Seems quite right to me
(And I might add that after 25 years of Linux experience, starting 1993 or so, I chose ROCK for Roon and am quite happy. I have lost the desire to check my servers’ status about 15 years ago. I can’t with ROCK, and I never had to, and that’s why I like it. Others may well have other requirements)
Or it could be something more special purpose, like ROCK. Or DietPi.
Well, except that in DSM world, something like RoonOnNAS has to be sideloaded anyway. But when there is an update, I tell it to update itself, and it is all done in a single operation.
My point though is that ROCK strips out far too many IMHO important functions to make for s good, reliable appliance. Just IMHO, of course.
You could make it simple, too. Most Windows boxes I had in the past 20 years or so had recovery partitions (which are difficult to get rid of) that can be used to reset to fresh factory state.
I’ve done support before. Lusers can break even unbreakable things! That said, we don’t know what the support cost breakdown is, or what it would be if ROCK worked differently. It’s not obvious whether even Roon Labs know. When there is a problem though, which quite likely could have been caught by proactive monitoring (disk or thermal failures, or out of memory crashes come to mind) become a source of dsignificant irritation and downtime to users and take up Roon support’s time.
Choice is always good. And with Nucleus at least you are getting a nice-looking box with a warranty. What are pros of ROCK though?
You also do know how to run a server and probably make sure that it does not overheat, lose power, or do something else bad.
It’s not that you have to look at anything coming from Roon running on some other OS either. But if there is a problem it id nice to get a notice that it is overheating, or a disk is sabout to fail, or even that it ran out of memory…
This is a little out of date - a couple of changes have been made here and there, but it’s far from simple. I have a guest wifi network on a separate VLAN, and multiple port forwards for remote access to the Synology for various Apps and of course, Roon Arc.
That said, the key premise of my network is if it has an ethernet port, it gets a cable. This keeps the wifi uncongested.
The problem with wifi, as I’m sure you know, is that even with a modern mesh network with a wired backhaul, every device connected to an AP is sharing that one backhaul connection and competing for bandwidth.
Depending on where you live, wifi is often trying to be heard in a radio spectrum saturated with neighbouring networks and devices using their own networks:
This is my network neighbourhood on 2.4 and 5 GHz:
Which reminds me , I need to review my channel selection for my APs.
For me, Roon has been rock stable since day 1, even on Early Access. I’ve had the occasional hiccup with Arc on Android, but it’s not uncommon to have the odd hiccup around App and OS updates.
Yes that’s what it means that it’s not well defined, so saying “it’s just a distro” means basically nothing without defining which kind.
Ummmm. Who is “you”? The target user who has no business running Linux can’t.
Agreed
True, but based on what I think I see on the forum, I don’t think that it’s a significant amount of cases. Certainly fewer than the problem’s we’ see with more people running on a generic Linux.
I turned it on 4 years ago and it has worked with zero maintenance and with zero making me want to check things.
If the option is there, I automatically feel the need, and it’s better for me if I don’t. It’s not crashing, it’s not overheating (fanless), a disk is unlikely to fail and if it does then I replace it. I also don’t believe, like many forumers apparently, that it’s the end of the world if I can’t play music through Roon for a few days, if I had to wait for a new SSD or NUC.
OK, let’s ditch the word “distro.” It’s just Linux, not much different from what’s running inside my little Bluesound speakers (which don’t seem to run out of memory and crash, or corrupt the database when kids pull them out of the wall socket).
Whoever is making that Linux variety available. In case of ROCK though we are already taking about someone who can get a correct NUC working and load ROCK on it, not the guy who sees “Roon Ready” on his new stereo, downloads remote on his phone, and complains that the server can’t be found.
Lots of people should just stick with Windows (or MacOS) and Geek Squad support… But I think there are also enough reports of people with failing hardware or odd crashes that take even Roon significant time to troubleshoot, which could have been prevented by SMART or tenmperature alerts…
Not any different from my Roon running on a NAS, except that if there were a problem, I would at least get notified.
That’ not really a problem with the OS though, but with your desire to look at blinkenlights, isn’t it?
Except when it fails, and you have to scramble. I ran a DroboFS NAS for 15 years without having to restore from backups once, but that’s because although it did not offer much in way of thorough monitoring (well, you could SSH into it, but I rarely bothered) but it would tell me when there was a problem with a disk. And I’ve definitely had disks failing while well insude the warranty period.
It’s not an end of the world. Not even if you never can use Roon again, really, but nevertheless it is annoying. There’s no additional cost to using some slimmed down Linux in lieue of RoonOS. And if you already have an older PC or Mac with Windows or MacOS, then there’s no additional cost for hardware either, and you are not adding more garbage to landfills either…
OK, can ROCK be better and more of a reliable appliance? Sure.
The person who can’t flash ROCK can still by a Nucleus
But that’s not where or why I entered the discussion. I did because I disagreed with it’s just like a Linux distro and people can just run any Linux distro instead. Because it’s isn’t and they can’t.
Lots of people have trouble with Windows as well, which is why a simple solution is desirable.
Sure, but we all agree that people who are good with computers have lots of options and this isn’t about them.
In part, yes, but it’s also a fundamental OS/UX design decision
I just buy a new one. I keep backups of course
Reading people’s meltdowns, one would think that it is, that’s my point. I don’t care if I have to wait for the Amazon package
There is for the people who are overburdened by it. I read the DietPi thread where someone (I forgot who but they are by far not the most computer illiterate person) made the switch and went through weeks of questions and handholding by the whole Roon-on-DietPi community.
And I think that’s the point. It should be better…
Of course. But just like ^^above, Nucleus could also do better.
The first part would take us back to arguing what a “Linux distribution” is or means. The second part… it’s the difference between can and should. And whether ROCK makes an ideal OS to run Roon under, I am not so sure about.
Some people can break a cast iron skillet (I know them ) Chances are though that the trouble might be easier prevented, or diagnosed and fixed, under a more manageable OS.
Yes, but people who aren’t good with computers, or don’t want to bother, also deserve a reliable appliance. Which, in the 21st century, I expect to be one that can at least tell me when there is a problem. If my fridge can do it, so should a Roon server.
Mmm, I would fundamentally disagree. I do not think that lack of observability is ever a good design. You could hide it well enough (e.g. with Drobo you had to jump through some hoops to SSH into it) but iut should be available for when you need it.
Yes, but you also are a professional and know how disks fail.
Some people like to melt down for most trivial reasons, but that doesn’t mean that something that can be more resilient shouldn’t be.
So maybe DietPI isn’t the best choice of a distro…
1 Like
Torben_Rick
(Torben - A Dane living in Hamburg - Roon Lifer)
54
That must be me you are referring to.
I did get a lot of great help from many very nice users in the Room community. I think it is great that so many users are willing to help. I am thankful for that.
How there is a thread where others who wants to make the same move can get a lot of good information.
If getting help is = computer illiterate. Than I will probably have to live with that.
It’s great, but you are not so bad with computers AFAICT and it still wasn’t so easy for you. Which is normal, but if those who are currently Nucleus owners and “bad with computers” all attempted the same, I don’t think the very nice users in the community would scale.
There are also threads on how to enter an address into Windows File Explorer and still I have to explain it again every other day.
I said NOT the most illiterate. Everyone needs help here and there. The question in the discussion was how much help is available and how much would be needed
Roon ARC is OK if you’re not behind an ISP or mobile provider using CGNAT. You can even make it reasonably secure with a reverse proxy, cloudflare tunnels and mTLS (Using your devices as the key to your apps).
Humbled and jacked this created so much discussion. But a few quick notes.
I would never use Windows for a Core machine.
ROCK on a Roon-spec NUC is an appliance, and you guys can debate, but it’s true. Jeez, the makers of Roon put it out there themselves: what is the question?
To those that insist endpoints can be connected via WiFi: Congrats. I’m glad it works for you. As a former professional in the business, I wouldn’t do it that way.
I average one or two dropouts per day. Is it possible that my having placed a 10G fiber switch (MikroTik CRS305) and a pair of 10G fiber media converters (QSFPTEK) between the ethernet router and the Nucleus and the Endpoint (a Holo Red) could be causing dropouts? Is ethernet preferable from the reliability point of view for Roon’s operation?
In principle, the part of your network that you have described is OK but it is more complex than a simple ethernet connection and so there is more to go wrong.
As a trouble shooting excercise, I would replace the MikroTik switch, media converters and fibre cables used to connect the Nucleus and your Holo Red with a simple (and very cheap) 1Gbps switch and standard CAT5 or 6 cables in order to make things a simple as possible and then see where that gets you. If it makes no difference, then the MicroTik switch, Media converters and fibre cabling is not the issue and can be re-instated.
If the above experiment does elliminate the issue, then you can try re-introducing the MicroTik switch but simplifying the system by, for example, getting rid of the media converters and instead using a 1Gbps capable SFP+ copper modules in the MicroTik switch and then using same CAT5 or 6 cables to connect to the Nucleus and Holo Red as in the initial experiment above.
As and aside, 10Gbe, whether it be fibre or copper, to the endpoints is completely over the top. It is unlikely that they will even be able to max out a 1Gbe ethernet link. Just for perspective, 768kHz 32 bit stereo is just under 50Mbps - so even 8 channel audio at these exotic sample rates would only use about 200Mbps (or 20% of the capacity of a 1 Gbps ethernet link).
Indeed, your Holo Red only supports a 1Gbps ethernet connection. Indeed many audio streamers, even some that accept 384KHz/32bit stereo, only have a 100Mbps ethernet port on them. There is no need for anything more.
Your Nucleus will also have a 1Gbps ethernet connection so again, using 10Gbps fibre and a media connector is over the top. The situation changes slightly with the Nucleus Titan (and possibly the Nucleus One although it only claims a 1Gbps port) because it will almost certainly have a 2.5Gbps ethernet port.
Unless the same switch is being used to connect other equipment that does use multi-Gb ethernet (and can make use of the bandwidth) I would use a much lower spec 2.5GBe or even a 1Gbe switch to connect my Roon Server and my endpoints (indeed that is exacly what I have done).
In general, ethernet over fibre has three advantages:
It can connect over much longer distances than ethernet over copper which is limited to a maximum of 100m. Unless you have cable runs over 100m, this is irrelevant.
It is completely immune to electro-magnetic interferance and so in exceptionally noisy (in EMI/RFI terms) it can be more reliable (in digital transmission terms). Such environments will not be seen in the home and so this is moot for home use.
With suitable (and very exotic) transceivers and fibre cables, it can be used to provide for truly exotic (40Gbps and beyond) ethernet data rates when both ends of the link can support such speeds. This does not apply in your case.
What fibre does not do is:
Improve the quality of the network link. Ethernet over copper, when properly installed taking maximum cable lengths into consideration, is already providing a very high quality link.
Improve galvanic isolation. Ethernet up to and including 10Gbps over copper using standard CAT 6e or lesser cables already provides galvanic isolation between equipment so there is nothing to be gained by the use of fiber in this respect. Don’t use CAT7 and CAT8 cables. When used with appropriate equipement at both ends, such cables do provide a ground connection. When, however, used with devices that are not designed for CAT7 or 8, they offer no advantage and cost considerably more.
) Chances are though that the trouble might be easier prevented, or diagnosed and fixed, under a more manageable OS.