Do router and ethernet cables affect sound quality?

Well to be fair, I think this has been asked on nearly every Hi-Fi audio forum I can think of… and I think it’s nearly always the same non definitive answer; ie it depends… with a scattering of extremists purveying their alternate and opposite viewpoints as absolute one truths.
The debate here has been quite measured by comparison… :grinning:

There are however somethings that make some of the rest of us see red, and those are some of the ridiculous claims of products targeted to the non technically savvy Hi-Fi enthusiast… and one can’t resist poking a bit of fun.

2 Likes

I’ve seen a variation of this where they do this with laser printers and phones. They get malware installed to pulse the line above human hearing and have something near by to receive the data.

Your example is a specific built technology to turn the fiber into a collection device. I would be careful about hinting that your fiber on premise, terminated to a transceiver, is going to allow something to propagate down stream.

I also love the old put a wireless sniffer in a box and ship it to the data center.

Where/When/What gear? I’ve yet to experience this and dog knows I tried with the 3 meter WireWorld Starlight vs 98 meter of bulk Hyper-Tek CAT 5e, JRiver, Emotiva DC-1 DAC and AKG 701’s Headphones.

1 Like

In the example I am referring to it would only be valid on a specific layer 2 segment - so not relevant the other side of a router such as an internet router.

1 Like

To the disciples of scientism (those who believe in measurements and science textbooks to deliver the truth). It’s unfortunate that scientism is sometimes taken to be the same as science.

Lord Kelvin, by some considered to be the greatest physicist of the nineteenth century, famously said around 1900 that there was nothing new to be discovered in physics anymore. (Alas for him, Einstein, Bohr, Schrödinger, Heisenberg… were to enter the scene soon).

He also famously said that X-rays were a hoax.

Conclusion 1: Even great scientists get things terribly wrong.

Peter Higgs’ early work on the missing particle was derided and rejected (such as his second article on the subject). That is the Higgs as in Higgs boson.

Conclusion 2: Potentially revolutionary speculations (and findings) are sometimes suppressed due to the inertia and lack of imagination of the scientific community.

More recently, a meta study on the relationship between EMF (electromagnetic field) and EMS (electromagnetic sensitivity) has concluded that all these studies didn’t quite know what and where to measure. It appears that appropriate studies need to be undertaken at the molecular level. What (if anything) they will find cannot be predicted, but they will at least look in the right places.

Conclusion 3: To conduct a scientific experiment, you need to know where to look and what to look for and have the appropriate detection devices.

This last example reminds me of ethernet cables and switches.

Note: I am in no doubt whatsoever that some companies peddle fraudulent material or, at the very least, make highly misleading claims. The problem is how to separate the wheat from the chaff. Scientism won’t do.

I have no idea whether ethernet cables or switches make a difference. Should I desire to find out, I will run a test with my EARS only.

5 Likes

Well that’s scientific.

2 Likes

I 100% agree and have a setup that allows you to ensure that your other senses aren’t engaged. That you are indeed 100% ears only.

For the time being that’s all we got. At least some of us try instead of arm chairing it.

I am assuming @Poseidon77 did not mean a double-blind ABX test. That is what we got, and it works pretty well as a scientific method.

3 Likes

I trust you understand that this is to be taken figuratively. A synecdoche, to be quite technical. Part for whole, and whole includes: my ears, my brain, my hifi system, my cables, my room, my time of day, my music, my various moods, … All else is secondary.

This is my post on A/B testing from 3 weeks ago (a different thread). I never received an answer from any objectivist. Maybe I’ll get lucky today.

A/B testing has its uses, but rarely delivers a clear verdict.

1) practical problems
money and time – who has the financial resources and/or the time to set up an A/B test for lots of different gear?
Doing such a test at a dealer’s is hardly conclusive, as you will listen to equipment that is not yours, in a different listening space, under time constraints, … So doing a test that might yield useful results would have to be done in your listening environment, with your equipment. Here the money factor comes in. Not every dealer will graciously lend you equipment to run your test.

2) major differences in SQ – I will grant you that a test done at a dealer’s may be conclusive if the differences in SQ are major and that such differences are immediately obvious (they hit you right in the face or, better, ears)

3) minor/ subtle differences – this is the case that interests me most.
A/B testing for minor differences is rarely conclusive. It’s an artificial way of listening to music (and, as I’ve argued in a previous post, ruins the state of mind that is needed to be at all receptive to minor differences). And the differences may only reveal themselves over time, or with certain recordings rather than others.

4) noise and information overload
For an A/B test to have any scientific validity, it must be run multiple times (a series of 8-10, with minimum of 10 samples) and you must consistently score within the 80% range. (And I won’t even mention double-blind, for who can readily put together a test in conformity to rigorous scientific testing protocols?)
The very scientific exigencies of the test set-up, paradoxically, also make it highly unlikely that such a test will yield any meaningful results. Your brain will go into auditory shut-down while being assaulted by all those series and samples. You won’t be able to hear anything meaningful any more, let alone subtle differences in SQ.
It’s like uttering the same word multiple times in quick succession. That word will soon have lost all meaning (information will be replaced by noise).

So what’s the conclusion I draw from all this?
A/B testing may work for major differences. For minor differences, well … see above.

Please, objectivists, have a go and address the arguments I’ve put forward. I’m here to learn (I insist: this is not meant sarcastically – I’m really here to learn).

3 Likes

I believe that, but I won’t engage here. I suggest starting a separate thread on “Double-blind ABX testing”, if there isn’t one already.
I’ll just say that just because a method has drawbacks doesn’t mean it’s not useful, especially when the benefits greatly exceed those drawbacks. The biggest benefit is the elimination of bias; that’s the only way you can trust the results.

1 Like

As an objectivist, I think you have reached a good conclusion. Good testing can be very difficult, and sometimes (practical) impossible.

So to the topic. Because of buffering, A/B-testing routers and ethernet cables is pretty much impossible. You never listen to the data stream, and the timing may be many seconds and even minutes off: You may “listen” to the other, unconnected, device.

2 Likes

Which is why cables that are good for general computing should make absolutely no difference in SQ.

I trust anyone as much as they trust their ears.

My 802.3ad setup can be done anywhere.

1 Like

Why?

That’s like saying “I have no idea if global warming is real. Should I desire to find out I will measure the temperature in my backyard only”. Or, “I have no idea if Covid-19 vaccines work. Should I desire to find out I will run a test with my body only”.

I’m not sure what you expect to achieve by failing to take account of anything beyond the orbit of your own experience.

4 Likes

What would help is if manufacturers are truthful and transparent about their testing. If they claim something, at least provide some meaningful explanations around how they achieve the improvement. They should be the ones who take care of the difficult ABX type of scenarios. That will at least be a good starting point for folks to make decisions on reviewing things in their own systems when they can…

Zubair

1 Like

If they were truthful and transparent about their testing they wouldn’t have a product to sell…

IIRC, the Chord Company Ltd (cables) got spanked in the UK courts a few years back because they couldn’t substantiate their claims about an ethernet cable.

4 Likes

I was slightly incorrect there - it was an adjudication by the Advertising Standards Authority. Makes for interesting reading though in the context of this thread:

http://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/the-chord-company-ltd-a14-274211.html

2 Likes

haha the old trick of using a curtain to (blind) swap cables at a hifi demo and then turn the volume up.

Voila… our cable sounds so much better

2 Likes