I think a person can pay more (or less) for something because they like the way it looks, or its size, etc. These factors may not be related to sound quality at all. And I believe lots of things in the analog chain can sound different (better or worse depending on taste). This would include the analog section of a DAC (yes, I think DACs can sound different because of this), speakers, etc. It’s just the magical USB or ethernet cables that really make me shake my head in disbelief.
p.s. I’ve bought many pairs of shoes without trying them on first (online shopping). And I’ve bought at least 3 new cars without test driving (Two were Honda minivans for my wife; she had no interest in test driving, she wanted them because of features, looks, and reported reliability). My last car I bought strictly because of measurements. At the time, it was considered by the experts that test such things as the safest small SUV based on tests and safety features. I would have driven it, but dealer that had what I wanted had to order it to get the color/features I wanted and it wasn’t easy for me to arrange a test drive because none were in stock. (A Subaru Forrester by the way, now 6 years old and has been a great car.)
edit: after thinking about this, I realized that my last amp and preamp were purchased (online dealer) without having ever heard. Just based on reputation of designer/company and comments from owners on forums. I’ve been using this set for 12 years happily.
I think it depends on which bits of audio gear you’re talking about, and where they fit in the audio chain. For example, different makes and models of speakers sound different. No argument from the objectivist camp, and no implosion. Different amps (both power and pre) have different characteristics that can effect SQ. No argument, no implosion. Different DACs … a bit trickier, but I’m happy to concede that a ladder DAC may produce different results to a basic Topping DAC, and that a valve driven DAC may be slightly different again. Again, no argument, and no implosion.
What was your point? Oh yeah, do objectivists buy gear based on measurements only. No, clearly not, at least not for anything that forms part of the audio chain. It’s also worth noting that the differences I mentioned above can, in all probability, be measured to a high degree of accuracy … because we’re talking about gear that can affect SQ.
However, let’s not forget the title of this epic thread: do router and ethernet cables affect sound quality? Both components are in the digital chain and their sole purpose is to transfer data from one place to another. And there are numerous ways their efficacy can be measured. Would I buy an ethernet cable without ‘listening’ to it first? Of course I would. Same for routers and switches. All I need to know is that they can do the job they were designed to do. There isn’t anything else to discuss.
As for your other examples. I recently bought a pair of KEF LSX for my office without listening to them first, and I just ordered a pair of Vans sneakers on Amazon because they were a good deal.
I can’t see any holes in my “argumentative armature”, nor any reason to worry that my objectivist worldview is in danger of imploding.
OK, I’ve learned something. Some people buy stuff, and some of it not inexpensive, such as cars, without testing it first. Nothing wrong with that, of course – it’s your money after all, but I do find that rather odd or, at the very least, risky. Why would I buy a car without test driving it, as the seats may be completely wrong for my body or back? And that has nothing to do with measurements. There are no seat measurements included in a car’s specs. What do you do if the seats should prove to be uncomfortable?
A personal story: I tried a Tesla Model 3 – based on specs it was by far the most powerful and well equipped car in that price range. But I hated the seats and interior, so I didn’t buy it in the end. No specs sheet would have told me that I would find the car rather underwhelming.
What if your amp doesn’t work well with your speakers? What if your shoes don’t fit well after all?
Really, why on earth would anyone buy something without having a good look at it first? Pig in a poke situation. Not an ideal situation.
Vans sneakers: bought them before, don’t need to try them on again.
Transit van: shipped from Scotland, not particularly worried about the comfort of the seats as I needed nine of them at the time and couldn’t find one locally to test drive.
Mac mini, LG monitors, cameras, TVs, and loads of other stuff: bought on the basis of reviews.
I wouldn’t buy an amp if I hadn’t tested it with my speakers, or I’d make sure the company had a decent returns policy.
Ethernet cable: send it back if it doesn’t work.
None of this has anything to do with your previous comment regarding objectivists and their world view, nor does it have anything to do with routers and ethernet cables.
The last car that I bought was a pretty basic Vauxhall. You know what you’re getting - it’s a Vauxhall without many trimmings. No need to test drive. No regrets there.
Shoes - distance selling regulations means that I can return them. But if I know the brand, I’ll often know the fit.
When it comes to DACs, HPAs and a whole raft of solid state devices - no need to test. If they measure transparently then I can stick them in my chain and use DSP to get what I want out of the end result.
Transducers are different and, to be fair, nobody on ASR would deny this.
I almost never see, audition or test anything before I buy it. I live in the middle of nowhere and my best friend (apart from Mrs SukieInTheGraveyard) is the Amazon delivery driver.
That’s because you engage in some sleight-of-hand. You reduce the whole question to ethernet cables, which allows you to get around measurements when it comes to amps for instance.
But that doesn’t help you, really. As far as I can seen, the objectivist claim is that amps that measure the same will sound the same. So, if you claim that amps that measure the same can indeed sound different, you are no longer squarely in the objectivist camp. Because on what scientific evidence (i.e. measurements) would you base such a claim? No measurements will back you up. Do you maybe trust your ears – what heresy!
DACs, from an objectivist point of view, can be assessed 100% through measurement. It’s but digital processing, and we all know that as long as the processing works it works to the best possible standards. So here too, you’re no longer squarely in the objectivist camp.
You say that you would buy an ethernet cable without listening to it first. Sure, that works for cheap standard cables. But what if you were to buy one that cost 600 €? You would surely want to listen to it first (unless money is no object). Of course, you won’t ever consider buying such a cable, as in your view it is snake oil. But that comes close to a petitio principii fallacy.
So, in my view, there are quite a few holes in your argument.
I think it does relate to the argument/ thread. Insofar as one would expect objectivists to put their money where their mouth is. In this case: buying audio gear (cables) purely based on measurements. (Shouldn’t be restricted to cables, really, as objectivists’ cables will be cheap – but more in the line of power amps, pre-amps, DACs, … here we’re often talking real money.)
I must say that, however odd I find the practice of buying stuff without inspecting it first, you’re at least ideologically coherent in your actions. Allow me to find that quite irrational.
In a previous response you wrote to my question what is there to lose
Apart from self-delusion, buying a pig in the poke often results in waste of time, effort and money.
Can you give me an example of two amps that measure exactly the same?
ASR compare DACs on the basis of distortion and noise and, as I’m sure you’ve aware, many cheap DACs outperform many of the high-end boutique devices … using these metrics. However, I don’t think that anyone has claimed that top marks for distortion and noise are the whole story. As I understand it, higher scores indicate a higher degree of transparency, which is definitely one of the qualities I value in a DAC, but I’m fairly sure that we can agree there’s a bit more to it than that.
It’s “but digital processing”, but it’s also analogue output.
You’re right, I wouldn’t buy one. The only not-dirt-cheap cable I’ve bought recently was a Blue Jeans RCA cable for the sub in my office, because it has better shielding than a standard cable, which I thought might help as it has to run behind a whole bunch of electrical equipment. I thought that was a rational decision, based on common sense. I wouldn’t buy an expensive ethernet cable, because there’s absolutely no rational explanation as to how it could possibly make a difference.
Are you insinuating that this would be one persons default view?
My view on Ethernet is it’s all based around the IEEE 802.3 standards. Look it up sometime. It’s 1000’s of pages.
IEEE says that the cable, to be proper, needs to hit X/Y/Z numbers.
Once you’ve purchased said cable that meets or exceeds the X/Y/Z numbers what else is there? Because if there is anything that UpTone, Bonn, Synergistic, AQ, Nordost, WireWorld know about it would behoove them to share as to drive sales.
If UpTone and their eR did what it said and obtained FDA certification they could charge $2-$3K and sell to hospitals to put EKG, MRI, and other imaging devices on.
I know at least two people that have bought houses (costing in excess of $500,000) without ever seeing them in person. Only pictures and a google map view of the general neighborhood.
edit: and this was a few years ago, not in the recent Covid-induced housing market craziness.
and do you think that this was a good or sound approach to house-buying?
Do they strike you as being relatively stable and sane individuals?
Unless they are multi-millionaires for whom $500,000 is just pocket money, their decision to purchase houses without seeing them strikes me as sheer utter madness!
I wouldn’t do it personally, but worked out fine in their situations. They are not multi, multi millionaires, but both earn mid 6 figure incomes so are comfortable, but still needed mortgages. They are sane and successful well established professionals. But in both cases, housing is just a mostly functional, utilitarian thing, rather than emotional. For my wife and me housing is always an emotional decision.
Edit: my language was sloppy. I know exactly two couples who did this, one being my in-laws. Not at least two.
I agree, totally. But how to measure/ scientifically underwrite that “a bit more to it than that?” Objectivists don’t have an answer (apart from speculations, but that’s no better than subjective impressions).
Depends on what measurements you consider relevant. Amps may differ in this or that regard but if these differences are situated in the non-audible range, they shouldn’t matter. So it’s perhaps best to say highly similar rather than identical specs.
Lots of objectivists claim that under double-blind testing conditions, there won’t be an audible difference between a decent 500 € and a 20,000 € amp. (As long as power output is sufficient to drive your speakers and distortion levels are low, plus a few more nifty measurements being highly similar.) Needless to say, I find this hard to believe. Had a few amps in my life, and the more expensive ones always sounded better in so many ways. What I’m prepared to accept is that there comes a point where the difference is no longer noticeable and possibly non-existent, so the price difference will just be a matter of power and casing and status anxiety. How much power do you need, how fancy does the casing have to be? And if you suffer from status anxiety, consult a shrink (or just get real).
Here too, many objectivists would disagree. To the extent at least that the analogue stage doesn’t matter as long as the DAC’s conversion protocols are properly implemented.
I find it fascinating (and, quite frankly, hilarious) that some of the same people who berate subjectivists for their irrational beliefs should recommend buying stuff without inspecting it first. And that’s what exactly? Rational, reasonable, the way to go to avoid bad surprises? Buying a 500,000 $ house just on the basis of a few Google pictures strikes me as rather clueless.
I’m getting to the edge of my knowledge on this topic, but I’m fairly confident that there are ways to measure the differences between different types of DACs. For example, Delta-Sigma DAC’s are objectively quite different to ladder DACs or R-2R DACs. I’m also fairly confident that different output stages will measure differently. In light of both those points I think you’re over-extending your argument when you state that “objectivists don’t have an answer”.
I didn’t say I recommended this (buying a house sight unseen). Just that I knew people that did this. But in any case, I don’t think “Objectivists vs Subjectivists” is some sort of hard and fast categorization of people across all decisions, as you seem to be suggesting. I was certainly a subjectivist with regard to choosing my spouse, the various sports cars I’ve enjoyed (or regretted) owning, and many other decisions in my life. But yeah, when it comes to buying bog standard cables and routers, I’m a pretty hard core objectivist.
