Do router and ethernet cables affect sound quality?

I have no reason to believe that the views expressed above regarding changes to networking equipment and cables leading to sonic improvements are not true if that is the listener’s experience, and we’re all experienced listeners here. But ascribing those improvements to network operation are not true, because it cannot be so, and I suspect that that is where the divergence and misunderstanding may be coming in.

Changing networking gear will not change jitter, amplitude, timing etc. in a way that matters, it cannot - the fundamental operation of the streaming player, TCP, IP and Ethernet make that a fact. By contrast, the streamer and DAC absolutely can introduce (or not) all of those, and do so irrespective of how the bits got to the streamer (Ethernet, WiFi, PowerLAN, other). And assuming the player is appropriately implemented for the network type and scale in question - in this case/my experience, all evidence indicates that Roon is appropriately implemented - we can start to look to the streamer to DAC interface and all the other analogue inputs, RF, power etc. So assuming the network is working correctly - which is fairly easy and cheap to do with Ethernet - when you hear a difference between switches, it isn’t due to the network operation per se, but something else.

An example, for the sake of speculation, a cheap switch may add the right electrical harmonic to the domestic household power circuit that then leads to the analogue section of the DAC being negatively impacted - that I can envision happening. I could imagine such a scenario would (correctly) imply the switch was the problem, and it was (incorrectly) due to what it primarily does, switch packets. But in reality, that has nothing to do with networking, it is just power circuits impacting analogue signals, and I think most of us accept that that is real. A real example of that was a friend’s Pink Triangle turntable used to sound terrible some days and fantastic others - experimentation proved it was the CD player. When the CD player was on, it created sufficient noise over the power circuits to impact the turntable. Basically the digital noise from the CD player did something to the PSU on the turntable - we didn’t bother to investigate what, as electrical isolators provided the same solution as unplugging the CD player, solved. It wasn’t that the CD player sounded bad or good, it was the turntable being unable to reject the electrical noise - CD players were new at the time, who knew?

Similarly, I never measured the RF emitted by a switch, I’m sure metal cases (Cisco, other brand names designed mostly for racks in wiring closest and data centers) emit less than plastic cases designed for desktops. But lots of noisy RF may create problems with analogue signals that are in close proximity - such would be the case of a switch and DAC in the same room, on the same shelf, or worse, stacked.

I suspect, as you hear a difference in your system, and others cannot hear a difference in their system, it is specific to your system. But it isn’t the network, it cannot be the network - but it might be interaction between components, and that may be more expensive to fix than an audiophile switch, only you would be able to assess that.

In my setup, my switches are in the basement, next to the server running Roon Core. My players are all over the house directly connected to Ethernet drops. In the main listening room my Raspberry Pi/DAC and power amp are on dedicated electrical circuits (unique runs to the panel), and the Raspberry Pi and DAC are on a separate electrical mains cleaning system. Whether I use my PoE switch, my non-PoE switch or WiFi makes no difference to my system. And I further suspect, that an audiophile switch would also make no difference, because the switch is physically and electrically separated from the audio circuits by some margin.

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Did that. Currently running Audio Physic Classic Compacts - amazing speakers. Three years ago remodeled and put in 3/4inch quarter sawn floors over a new 1/2inch subfloor, and rockwall soundproofing in all of the walls, and new 13 foot sofa to suck it all up. Sounds great and very live. yes, speakers are huge difference. Again, I did mention that any improvements from the network back end are subtle, so yes, best to solidify the front end first. But if your source sucks, the best speakers and room in the world aren’t going to do s*#t.

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All of my audio and networking gear are on different circuits (the amp and DAC on their own dedicated 20amp circuit, streamer on its own, opticalModule on its own). Switches in the basement office closet. I hear what I hear.

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Right, yep.

On the same phase?

Correct, I don’t believe in that.

Great example of a circular reference.
The proof of the effectiveness of my snake oil is that a lot of people bought it. With this proof I can sell even more bottles and with more clients the new snake oil bottles must be even more potent than the last charge. Maybe I can increase the price for the proven better product.

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@Bill_Janssen, that is not an “always true” statement in my experience.

I do agree the software is the most important piece of the streamer, as most SOCs/Motherboards have good enough clocks, relatively speaking lots of memory and streaming audio takes no real CPU power. But if the Streamer is attached to a DAC via USB, then the USB implementation is important, both software and hardware - which means the OS, drivers and any FPGAs used. And whether the USB bus (not port) is dedicated (no mice, Ethernet ports or other junk). But most Raspberry Pis have a single USB bus that is shared between the ports and the network (Pi 4 has a dedicated Ethernet port), so the network and the DAC compete; most of the time it just works though as throughput is not the issue. If the I2S bus in the Pi is used, this eliminates that problem, but then the DAC needs to have isolated power for the analogue circuits, the clock needs to be really high quality for the DAC or the S/PDIF or AES/EBU connector - or better yet, re-clocked (i.e. buffered) on the HAT. So the streamer does matter, but it’s not expensive to make a “perfect” one, just choose the motherboard/SOC carefully and a well designed PSU. And software can be optimized by removing unnecessary housekeeping processes from the OS, useless applications and using real time kernels etc. These are diminishing returns, definitely, but they will make the streamer’s life easier.

For example, I used an ASUS M3N-PV for many years, it’s an AMD Athlon low-end gaming board, and was dedicated as an HTPC. It was a terrible streamer, despite having a top end fanless PSU, SSD, only two USB devices (DAC and mouse) on separate buses etc. and being completely silent. There was something fundamentally wrong with the USB buses - it couldn’t cope with 96/24 without pops and switching to a PCI USB card was no better. I hand assembled the OS in the end: real-time kernels, only specific processes etc., all to no avail, the hardware was useless. But it could play 1080p video without an issue.

Well, I’ll bet that your system that runs on nothing but air sounds amazing. Would love to know where you got it so you can ‘save’ me (and maybe others) from spending any more money on this dreadful hobby.

It’s not the brand of ball completely, all depends if it’s a yellow, blue or red dot depending on the speed of improvement you want. :grinning:

Well, yes, I agree that everything in the streamer has to work properly. But the regular old switching power supply it comes with should be just fine.

By the way, another workaround with the Pi 3’s Ethernet/USB problem is to not use the Ethernet port (instead of not using the USB port). I switched mine over to WiFi instead of Ethernet, and problem solved.

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I’m hearing her voice is slightly off centre stage throughout the song with a subtle echo of “that waiting hand” to the right just where backing vocals come toward the end of the song. Is this what you mean?

Nonetheless, I’m wondering if the differences you hear are influenced by speaker placement, your seating position and the fact that you’re moving about to swap cables etc.

As a general rule, no I can’t agree with this … it depends . For example, my DAC is designed to work as intended with the switched mode supply included in the box. In fact, the designer has stated that there are no measurable benefits using a linear supply. Other equipment may be influenced by such changes. However, that may be a reflection on the quality of the DAC not the role of ancillary items such as power supplies, switches and Ethernet cables.

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Power sources, ah yes, the other bone of contention.

Mind you, before the power station in our neighbourhood was upgraded about ten years ago, the voltage in our house fluctuated wildly. Sometimes lightbulbs would blow inside a week, so I put in a power regulator.

That did wonders for just about every appliance in the house, including audio.

Now the power regulator has been taken out because we get a rock solid 230V all the time. Switching power supplies work just fine for me unless one of them emits the dreaded 50Hz hum. Then I just chuck it out and replace it with another cheap one that doesn’t hum.

I was dead curious about these vaunted linear power supplies so I borrowed one from a friend. I tried it on my Graham Slee Gram Amp 2 Communicator and I heard no difference whatsoever.

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No.

Just make sure that you use good router, and switch (eg Cisco), good Ethernet cables (eg Blue Jeans 6a).

Those are ridiculous analogies. In every way–design, measurement and experience–they are different.

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And I know those are silly analogies but I guess I just don’t understand this nothing matters attitude. About as silly as most of the naysayers analogies with kitchen stoves and why aren’t my prints blacker if I use a better cable analogies.

Nobody is claiming “nothing matters.”

  • Speakers
  • Room treatments
  • Amplifier
  • DAC

All of those things clearly matter (in roughly that order).

Ethernet switches and cables? No, provably those don’t matter.

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I’m done here.

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The opposite, source first:

DAC
Amp
Room treatments
Speakers

Cables between DAC and Amp / Speakers can be critical IMO.

Yes, please. :slight_smile: