Hi @xxx, given the fuss I am making, I think your question is fair.
By the way, I am not fixated on the Chord Hugo TT 2 doing DSD 512. I was told by the sales person that they verified this with Roon and Chord before placing my order. I now find out that they probably did not fully understand the issue. Chord’s specs on their web site are pretty vague. The DAVE does seem to have more power and its spec more strongly suggests that I could get DSD 512 through end to end. I am trying to verify that now.
Now to your question about DSD, after a disclaimer. I am aware that the playback data rate is down the list of things that matter in terms of SQ, leaving out for the moment the artistic merits of the performance and instruments used. Some examples are, the recording gear, mixing, up/downsampling, to create the files, and lots more. Those things being equal - it it is hard to get direct comparisons, I find I like the DSD sound a bit more than PCM. To be sure, PCM is sometimes brighter, but overall I like DSD. In my mind I think of PCM as giving me a more ‘solid state’ sound while DSD is more Tube like. I recently replaced a very old integrated amp with a tube pre amp and solid state AMP. A good balance I think.
As to why I may appear a bit fixated on DSD 512, I have found the higher sample rates are just a tiny bit better in terms of fullness/detail than their lower data rate counterparts. This is a pretty easy comparison since some sites let you download lower data rate files if you have purchased the higher data rate. Fore example NativeDSD.
The real question for me would be whether a R-Pi device would have the grunt to for that data rate with the specific DAC (assuming driver support). I have often found case where it works without glitches at a given rate with one DAC and not another despite both having very similar chipsets and XMOS USB chipset etc, but presumably running quite different firmware.
As for sound quality, (assuming no glitches due to inability to pass the data fast enough), this will not change. One of the commonly raised concerns with an R-PI feeding a USB DAC is that of noise on both the power over USB and the data lines. Your DAC USB claims isolation, so that should be moot.
Personally I would be nervous about an R-PI (3B+ or below) for transferring high data rates (PCM768 or DSD512), OTOH maybe an R-PI 4 would be up to the job, especially if connect via ethernet which has been a known issue with earlier models.
If you were to look at off the shelf network DAC adapters, many of thee are based on an R-PI type design, or at least very something similar, so if considering buying such a thing specifically for DSD512 to your specific DAC, I would first ask a vendor to confirm support in writing or provide a return guarantee in writing in the case of failure of this specific use case.
@Adam_Goodfellow, thank you for the ideas. Your last point about different scenarios is good. I have asked a person in this community with a DAVE to test exactly the DSD512 scenario with a Nucleus we have been talking about. If that works, that would be a way to solve the problem. I spent nearly 40 years in the software field and have come to respect the Roon software quite a lot. I would hate to have to give that up (especially since I just purchased a lifetime subscription )
Have you taken a look at other DACs for DSD playback. T+A DSD DAC 8 or the Holospring Kitsune Spring Edition Level 3, or PS Audio DirectStream, for example.
I was hesitant to mention other dacs - salt in the wound and all that. But yes agree - if DSD512 is the priority, then maybe look for a good DAC that is well supported and does a great job of it - Benchmark 3 comes to mind for eg.
Thank you for this. I had not heard of the T+A and just checked it out. It has the same Windows requirement as other DACs we have been discussing. We should stop calling this a Windows requirement - it just so happens there is a driver readily available for Windows. I just read a Stereophile review of the Holospring and it appears even more limited, though the review was excellent with lots of detail.
Finally the PS Audio DirectStream product is one I have been looking at for a while as I like the fact that everything is converted to DSD for playback. They are about 180 degrees different than the Chord which converts everything to PCM. That said, the PS Audio hardware is old and will only do DSD 128.
Therefore some Chord DAC supports DoP256 if they support both DSD256 and PCM768.
It is not possible to send DSD512 to Chord from any Linux product or Mac OS.
Another recommended product above does not currently do DSD512 on Linux either, pending firmware upgrade from the manufacturer. You still have to use Windows unless you get a Linux native DSD compatible DAC or a Roon Ready (different from Roon Tested) DSD512 player such as Lumin X1 or T2 from us.
Thank you for a pointer. Unless I have misread the specs, it is pretty limited in terms of frequency capability:
44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192 kHz (USB Input)
The only DACs that clearly state DSD 512 other than what we have been talking about that I know about are from Auralic. Even then they would not work with the Nucleus. I would only get the DSD 512 using one of their streamers.
I think we have exhausted this topic I have the following choices:
Give up on high data rate DSD, at that point I could start my search over again.
Get final verification that the Chord DAVE would support DSD 512 from the Nucleus +. If it does, spend the extra $$$ and do that.
Go back to Auralic (I started with an Aries Mini) and buy a set of their newer gear. This would mean not using the Nucleus +.
Stay with the Nucleus + and the Chord Hugo TT 2 and hope the Nucleus/Roon software is enhanced at some point in the future, working with Chord so that I can get DSD 512.
That’s the thing, DSD512 over DoP requires PCM1544, not PCM768. Hence why no device or OS supports it. You need native DSD protocol support in the kernel.
As to inserting an endpoint affecting sound quality… The folks here that claim they can hear a difference tend to prefer the stand-alone endpoints over connecting directly to the Roon Core. (In truth, there is no difference, however. (Or, at best, the differences are due to something else besides the inclusion of the endpoint – like poorly designed hardware.) But that statement is sacrilege to an audiophile, I know. Personally, I went the route of a DAC with integrated network streamer using an Auralic Vega G2 for my main listening room.)
Yes, give up on Linux and just run a Windows computer. It is the most straightforward answer to your issue.
That being said, Yes, the T+A requires a Windows PC. However, the Holospring can be fed by a microRendu. @andybob has been using such a setup for years upsampling to DSD512. I mentioned him so he can jump in and provide his personal experiences.
I just use a Windows PC. I have found no sonic differences between using that or a Linux based computer or computer endpoint.
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Edit:
Actually, let me clarify. There are two ways of doing this with Windows. The first is to use a NUC, load windows, load RoonServer, load the drivers, attached the DAC. The second is to get the Nucleus, attached the Nucleus to ethernet, attach a small Windows computer by ethernet which is running only RoonBridge and the DAC drivers, attach a USB from the windows box to the DAC. Now, the windows box in this case can be a very low powered all in one box, sold on Amazon for under 200 including Windows, because all it is doing is running the DAC drivers and taking the feed from Roon and passing it on. It is in essence replacing the SonicOrbiter mentioned in one of the posts above.
There is basically NO material available at DSD512. It’s an upsampling target. And it’s questionable if that even sounds better. Internally, most modern DACs also perform upsampling, so you are bypassing the DAC’s internal and feeding it from an external upsampler. It thus boils down to which upsampling algorithm you think sounds better (if you can even hear a difference).
But then I’m one of those engineering curmudgeons rather than an “audiophile”…
Not really, but more is coming along all the time. If you looked at NativeDSD several years ago, it was mostly DSD64. Now at least 50% of the stuff I have looked at is DSD 256. 512 has only been available in the last 6 months or so. It may be a small percentage for some time, or it may never catch on.
While not in the ballpark as the DACs mentioned so far, at least as far as price goes, I use an iFi Pro which can accept and/or upsample to 768k and DSD1024.
I feed it an unadulterated 44.1 signal thru an RPi transport and a Mutec re-clocker.
As Rugby sets out above I use a Windows 10 Core server, which also runs HQ Player. This is located in another room as it is not silent. Then Ethernet to a microRendu, USB to a Matrix Audio X-SPDIF2, I2s to Holo Spring 1 DAC.
The Holo Spring 2 is the current model and extends to DSD 1024 and has 48k family DSD capability.
I have no DSD 512 material, but listen to everything upsampled to DSD 512 and then NOS in the Spring.
One of the reasons I like the Spring is that it has separate R2R circuitry for PCM and DSD. So after HQ Player upsamples to DSD 512, everything stays in native DSD 512 until converted to analog.
I have two devices in the signal chain before the DAC (microRendu and X-SPDIF2). At one time this would have been anathema to my “less is more” analog sensibilities. And yes, I would prefer only 1 or preferably an Ethernet DAC. But the I2S input on the Spring 1 is better than the USB and I can’t hear any ill effects from the additional device. The Spring 2 has an improved USB input.
Although I like the detail and width of DSD 512 I think DSD in general can blunt the leading edge of the attack envelope. I also use valve amplification, although my gear is at the brighter end of the valve palette. I use a simple DSD modulator in HQ Player to preserve transients and no house curve (flat frequency response) to shift the aural tone back to “neutral”.
I have tried the following DAC’s plugged directly into a Nucleus Plus:
Chord Qutest - Maximum DSD 256 via DSP
Project S2 Digital Ultra - Maximum DSD 512 via DSP
Matrix Audio X Sabre Pro MQA - Maximum DSD 512 via DSP. I have an X-SPDIF 2 interface being delivered next week so I can try the I2S input on the X-Sabre.
After exhaustive testing, I too have left the DSP on DSD 512 upsampling because most of my ripped CD’s from the 80’s, 90’s and early 00’s sound better with that ‘edge’ rounded off.
I was going to question this but decided to do a sample of the now 23 albums they [NativeDSD] have available in DSD 512 format. I looked at about 10 - you really have to dig to find out some of the information. In any case, not one of the albums I looked at (and at least one of them I own) was recorded in DSD 512 format. The best I found was:
Digital converter
DSD Super Audio / Horus DSD256
Pyramix Editing / Merging Technologies
I think I can hear a difference but admit is is small between the DSD 256 and DSD 512 versions. I am currently upgrading my DAC/Streamer so I don’t have the best equipment to listen to it yet. The new equipment ‘might’ reveal more.
Since you are referencing recording made via Merging Technologies. Have you investigated their Merging NADAC+Player? It is their DAC and a Roon Core or endpoint at the same time.
Where is the upper limit for DoP. It is not clear in the line I quoted. That said, I have found that through conversations with the Chord people. DoP for all products is limited to to 256. Show me where 256 even appears on the line I quoted.
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