Going beyond the KEF LS50W magic

Audio Gear Talk KEF
41

Had that combo about 30 years ago with Rogers LS3/5a speakers, followed by original Quad ESLs. Gorgeous sound. Updated to Quad 405 power amp, then the first Boothroyd/Stuart Meridian electronics. As a matter of fact, I believe I had the first Boothroyd/Stuart Meridian tuner in the US. I hand carried it out of the Chicago CES show back in the days when it was the “high-end show.

Hope you had the side by side walnut cabinet for the 33-FM3 combo. Particularly enjoyed how the input buttons on the 33 would sometimes fly across the room when switching inputs. Still have and use the Rogers speakers pretty much on a daily basis.

I believe I was using a Linn LP-12 with an SME arm and Decca cartridge with this setup. Fond memories.

42

I started out 50 years ago with the Quads (in a home-built cabinet) and a pair of KEFs. The latter got replaced by Quad ESL57s 41 years ago, and I still have them (they were refurbished a year ago).

43

Geoff—I guess I’m older than I think. Had the setup I referenced 40 years ago, in 1977.

I was working for a company called Discwasher, who made record cleaners and I managed their retail audio division. We were Quad dealers and early on the bandwagon with Bob Stuart’s Boothroyd/Stuart Meridian. Over the years I’ve had the great pleasure to know many people in HiFi including John Bowers (B&W), Mark Levinson, Jim Winey (Magnepan), Bill Johnson (Audio Research), David Hafler, Henry Kloss, Amar Bose,
Gordon Gow (McIntosh), Gayle Sanders (Martin Logan), and of course Bruce Maier of Discwasher.

A fine gentleman named George Tobias was the representative for many of the British HiFi companies. George was also a representative for some great writing pen companies and he was a wonderful person. I believe he also had an audio store in Omaha, NB. By the way, George always told me that blue ink was preferable to black in terms of ink flow and I’ve heeded his advice to this day.

I’ve always enjoyed your posts on this forum as a moderating presence and have to admit that I don’t understand much of the angst over what Roon does, or what it should do. The bottom line is: if it works for you, use and enjoy it.

The best music system there is is the music system that gets used every day, where the user listens to the music and not the equipment, and loves it until it dies.

3 Likes
44

Did the same in an office system when i had to move desks. Suddenly they sounded kinda crap (and this was a super cheap rig, well below the standards of anyone on this forum ) and thought it was just the move for some reason.

Then one day was standing dead center and noticed a real increase in bass when i moved in either direction. So i checked the cables and yep!

1 Like
45

@Rik_Carter I’m glad you’re enjoying the Amphions and figured out your phase problem.

As others have said I think it’ll be hard to get optimal sound from the desk sitting position, but it seems you’ve achieved sound you’re happy with!

I had the Amphions pretty close to the front wall with no serious ill effect; they did ok there. The main differences I noted when I pulled them out for experimentation (wasn’t a permanent option) were tighter bass and a more focused soundstage. But up close to the wall, where they normally sat, they still sounded amazing. I also noticed they did not benefit from toe-in, I had them firing straight out into the room. Amphion’s engineering made them easier to place than other speakers I’ve had. In your case, I think a combination of pushing the speakers back towards the wall and moving the desk as far away as possible will get you a little further.

One other thing I definitely noted with the Argons – they benefit greatly from high quality stands. I went through 3 or 4 before I finally found stands that brought out the best. They were extremely solid, heavy, and filled with sand and on spikes (on carpet of course). Between speakers and stand I used some Herbie’s product I can’t recall at the moment. Last, couldn’t begin to say why, but Totem Beaks made a difference as well.

I like the Mytek Brooklyn addition to your setup, I bet that sounds incredible. When you have the Amphion amplifiers in place I think you’ll have a setup you’ll never want to replace.

What will you use to stream once you have the Amphion amps?

46

@jon_michaels

Thanks Jon, useful advice my friend. I’ve been playing around with the positioning, etc. of the Amphions. At the moment I have them closer to the front wall (about 30cm out), quite a lot of toe-in, and the desk pulled out by 15cm. So an effective increase in distance of only 45cm. I’ve also brought them closer into the desk but I’m wary of adding unwanted reflections from the desk.

I have also been playing around with the speaker stands, etc. I have them on a pair of Custom Design stands which is an all steel construction (originally designed for the KEF LS50W) with the large centre column 2/3 filled with something inert. They are pretty heavy. They are sat on spikes which are sat in soft metal cups which are sat directly on the floor (construction is laminate flooring->pine floorboards->rafters->concrete pad).

I had also raised their height so that the bottom of the speaker was a couple of mm above the desk height. I thought this might help with imaging when sat at the desk. I used a pair of IsoAcoustic L8R-255’s between the speaker and the stand for that job. I also played around with putting sorbothane hemispheres between the speakers and the stands. However, in both cases - with the IsoAcoustics and the sorbothane - this led to a significant drop in definition of sound. So, now I’ve got them sat directly on the Custom Design stands. Definition, bass, separation, etc. is all there now. I’ve read a few articles on whether one should couple/decouple speakers. To my ears, and in my room, coupling definitely seems the way forward!!! I would still like to experiment with their height so am thinking of getting 3" black slate slabs to put under each stand… :slight_smile:

Not sure about Totem Beaks… :slight_smile: What are they? The equivalent of a lightning conductor for speaker vibration?

47

Nope, not lightning conductors. I do know Totem speakers however. Actually, going to a release party for the Totem Tribe Tower tomorrow night at Gramaphone.

Even though I own Totem speakers, I have never used or owned the Beaks. However, below is the marketing copy and a pic:

=============================================================

Research and Development
The Beak was developed to control parasitic vibrations that occur on top of a speaker cabinet. These resonances negatively impact speaker performance, specifically the lobbing action in tweeters. Placing a Beak on any speaker helps to control vibration, provides and reduces interaction between speaker, tweeter and enclosure. Much thought and a year of research were poured into the development of the Beak. Its precisely defined contour was carefully designed and requires extremely accurate fabrication. If any of its properties were altered, it would impact the flux created within and render the unit ineffective

The Shape
The Beak is precision milled in a strictly prescribed form. The shape controls cabinet resonance ad vibration. The Beak acts as a channel for these vibrations , moving through its cavity to the discharge point on top.
Like the beak on a bird or whale channels sound, this Beak channels the negative effects of cabinet vibration. Hence its shape and name.

Placement
The placement of the Totem Acoustic ‘Beak’ on a smaller speaker is usually towards the outer front or rear corner of a speaker. Fine tuning the location through experimentation is the key to find the best location to maximize imaging, extension, and musical impression. A pair of Beaks can be used on each speaker for improved results.

48

Sits on hands.

50

LOL, I was only answering the question of what they were
:smiley:

51

I recall an advert some years back extolling the virtues of a handturned wooden volume control knob, which was said to improve SQ. In the meantime, here’s how you make a DIY concrete knob…

Sorry, I’m getting OT here, I’ll stop now.

2 Likes
52

Lol, I know. Like I said, I have zero idea why something like this should work. But I felt like I heard some differences. Blind A/B? Nope… that would have taken all the fun out of it! :joy: Certainly could have been my imagination.

53

@Rik_Carter Checking in to see how things are going. Did you ever get the Amphion mono amps to try out? Dual/mono BlueSound nodes?

Such a tempting setup!

54

@jon_michaels

Hi Jon,

Right, so I’ve got the Amphion rig easing in for over 72hrs now. A reminder:

  • ROCK on fanless Intel NUCi5 (with wifi/bluetooth disabled and using an external SSD powered from a separate 5V linear PSU)
  • Microrendu feeding a Mytek Brooklyn DAC on the async USB. Brooklyn powered by an external 12V linear PSU. MicroRendu powered by an external 7V linear PSU.
  • Balanced outputs from the Brooklyn to 2x Amphion AMP100 monos
  • The pair of monos feeding a pair of Amphion Argon3S

If you were buying the above brand new it would be getting close to £6k. However, I didn’t pay anywhere near that as I purchased the speakers and the DAC at half price by going ex-demo. So, I’d say my set-up is closer to £3.5k and worth bearing that in mind when I go on to compare this set-up against the KEFs (at £2k).

So, here’s my view on the KEFs and the Amphions:

KEF LS50 Wireless

I love this setup. For £2k you get a simple, integrated setup that produces fantastic audio. Even though it is cursed with reliability issues this remains an absolute bargain in the audiophile world right now. Pair it up with a lifetime Roon subscription and for £2,300 you have a match made in heaven. Seriously. It really is that good.

And I loved listening to the KEFs when I had them. There were a couple of shortcomings: an upper range that was a touch too brittle and unconvincing at times; a bass that sounded pretty amazing most of the time but on occasion could lose control and sound compressed… but only occasionally. Apart from those very, very minor gripes I thought the KEFs would be keepers. Alas I was to be the victim of not one, but two faulty pairs. So, with a very considerate dealer in hand, I took a full refund and reconsidered my options.

The thing is this - the KEFs changed my expectations about what was possible. Previous to them I owned a Naim set-up that was at least double the price of the KEFs. And I was never satisfied with that sound. So, my KEF experience was telling me that I should expect more and that a simpler setup can mean a better experience. I was very reluctant to say goodbye to the KEFs but I decided that I didn’t want any residual anxiety about the reliability of kit. I just want to listen to, and enjoy, good music.

It was your suggestion @jon_michaels that got me onto the Amphions and, by god, am I glad that you did. These speakers are so accomplished it is astonishing. They go way deeper than the KEFs (30hz at 6dB) and yet they are only about 25% bigger. I no longer need a sub (its been packed up since day 1 of the Amphions arriving). They retain all of the beautiful transparency, balance, and cohesion of the KEFs but they go further. The treble is seriously beautiful - the sweetest I have ever heard. The whole soundscape is convincing and authentic. Yes. That is how I would delineate between the KEFs and the Amphions: the KEFs do an amazing, almost magical, job of convincing you that you are listening to a speaker of much bigger dimensions; the Amphions are just out-right convincing no engineering magic going on here.

Re-read that last sentence as it holds the key to all of this. The Amphions have a solid, authoritative grip on the whole frequency range. I have not found them wanting anywhere.

So, if you can get the Amphions as ex-demo/mint 2nd hand, then I’d say you are about to introduce yourself to a new chapter in your listening experience.

What I will say is this - they are the best speaker I have ever heard in my 25 audiophile years.

[UPDATE: I should also add that the Amphions are excellent at low listening levels - I don’t feel that I am missing any information. I always had to have the KEFs at a higher volume than I would have ordinarily liked to feel engaged with the music].

Thanks @jon_michaels. Amphion are a pretty obscure brand outside of pro circles and I would have remained completely oblivious to them.

2 Likes
55

Ref: Bluesound Powernode 2. I cancelled the demo. Three reasons: (1) the OEM does not officially support the use of Powernode 2’s in mono mode and, frankly, I didn’t want to get into a situation where I was having to troubleshoot any issues without any support; (2) the use of two Powernode 2’s introduces redundancy as there are capabilities of one player that would never get used and I couldn’t reconcile that with value for money; and (3) I’d had the Amphions in my system for a week and given that they are simply the best speaker I’ve ever heard - and after very honest discussions with Anssi at Amphion - I decided to go with what those guys had settled on as the optimal set-up for Amphion speakers (i.e.their AMP100 with a Mytek Brooklyn).

56

@Rik_Carter You’ve articulated quite well what I thought of my Argon2’s (they truly are magical) as well as the comparison to the KEFs.

Think I said before also, you have an enviable setup; one that would be extremely hard to best until a dramatically greater price point (eg. 10x imho). I hope you enjoy it for years to come.

Also, I’ve also dealt with Anssi and he was extremely helpful and knowledgeable.

It’s funny… I’m very happy with the KEFs and fortunately so far no hardware issues. But reading your enthusiastic post made me miss my Amphions, and those little mono-blocks look sweeeeeet. Hopefully I (and my wallet) will not succumb…

1 Like
57

@Rik_Carter for fun here’s a couple of other recommendations since we possibly have similar tastes in SQ:

– for balanced/XLR cables, check out HiDiamond. I went through dozens, including some of the most well known and expensive. The HiDiamond cables were lightyears better. Don’t know how, don’t know why, but it was so.

– for speaker cables, I had a similar experience with the Zu Ibis. This particular isn’t produced anymore but if you can find a set they were amazing. That said their current top of line is probably great, and I always wanted to, but never did, check out the HiDiamond speaker cables (huge $$$).

– If possible consider upgrading the fuse(s) on your DAC and amps to HiFi Tuning Gold fuses. Made a noticeable difference on my Ayre amps.

– Feed everything with good power and good power cables. The Ayre power conditioner has worked great for me, producing better sound than one I had before it from Monster.

I know there will be plenty of eye-rolling regarding the above, but I’m just calling it like I heard it after years of fussing around.

58

You know you want to… :wink: seriously though, the KEFs are pretty damn awesome for their price. But, yes, I am very happy with the Amphions. Anssi and his crew deserve to corner the market on ‘transparent, full range’ standmounts.

The mono’s are indeed sweet. I currently have them on their own isolation mounts under the speaker stand. Yep, that’s right. They sit between the floor and the marble plinth that the speaker stand / Argon3S are sat on. I’ve thought long and hard about this and I’ve decided its what I want. I have DIY-ed a three layer isolation solution for the amps:

bottom-layer: ball-bearing/nut directly on my wooden floor with the ball on top
mid-layer: 1" thick MDF cut about 1cm oversized to the AMP100 monos
top-layer: 5mm sorbothane layer

And then the AMP100 on top sat on their own rubberised feet. There is a 10mm gap between the top of the AMP100 and the ½ inch marble plinth that the Amphion stand sits on.

I’ve had bass heavy music playing at -20dB (loud in my room) and tested vibration at various points, it kind of goes like this where 1 = minimal vibration, 3 = most vibration:

Amphion speaker - 2
Acoustic top plate - 2
(inert filler to ⅔ of height) Steel speaker columns - 3
Bottom plate - 2
Spikes - 2
Marble plinth - 1
Stainless steel feet that the marble plinth is sat on - 1

I’ve had the mono’s running for 72hrs non-stop and I’ve rested my hand on the top several times at various times of the day and they are running cool. Not even warm. Very pleasing.

59

Ha!!! Interesting you should raise this as I was only thinking about this yesterday. For the moment, I’ve got VanDamme ‘blue’ studio grade 2 x 4mm speaker cable and vanDamme silver-plated copper studio grade balanced XLRs into the amps, etc.

I have to say there is nothing lacking in this sound at the moment… but I am a tinkerer! :slight_smile:

60

Hi Rik, I just joined this forum to ask you a couple of questions. Hope you don’t mind. I’ve been looking at the Harbeth P3ESR and also the KEF LS50W until I came across your post on the Argon 3S. So, I’m wondering how the Powernode 2 handled the 3s compared to what you have now with the two mono AMP 100 and the Mytek Brooklyn. I know it’s a big difference in price but how different was the sound quality? I could potentially afford the two mono amps, but wouldn’t have enough for the Brooklyn. Maybe a node 2 or Parasound Zdac v2, or sonos even. Just curious how big of a difference the amps and dac made and how decent the powernode 2 was.

I’m also wondering if you auditioned any Harbeths or even the Amphion One18. I know the latter is a studio monitor, but am wondering how it differs for every day listening.

thanks and hope you’re still enjoying the argon 3s.

61

Hi i_k

Happy to help :slight_smile:

I never auditioned the Harbeths or the One18. I think the main difference between the 3S and the One18 is that the latter uses an in-house built Amphion tweeter. Curiously though the 3S are rated down to 30Hz whereas the One18 goes down to 45Hz. The 3S has the most controlled and grippy bass I’ve ever heard in a system with and without a subwoofer. The bass on the Kef LS50W is fantastic but the Argon’s go deeper and are more convincing.

I was seriously impressed with the Powernode 2 and it drove the 3S beautifully. I only went with the mono 100’s and the Mytek because I could get them for £2k all in which was only a couple hundred quid more than going with a pair of Powernode 2’s running in mono. Ordinarily that combo would be £3k.

I never got to A/B test the 100/Mytek against the Powernode 2. But I do recall not being disappointed with the Node 2. I only ever needed the volume at about 30% max and that was more than enough for my room (3m x 5m). In fact, that’s the one thing I’m less keen about with the Mytek - I have to have the volume at nearly 75% for the equivalent SPL. I honestly cannot think of an obvious difference in SQ between the two so you can be assured that the Powernode 2 will not leave you disappointed.

My recommendation is to speak to your dealer about trying the Powernode 2 in mono configuration. It uses a custom Hypex board and so is no slouch. A pair of those - one per 3S - would be a fantastic combo. In fact, even a single Powernode 2 was impressive.

But really this comes down to the speakers themselves. The 3S are simply the best speaker I’ve ever owned. If you can get an ex-demo pair for under £1,500 and with a Powernode 2 at about £700 you are not far off the price of a pair of Kef ls50w’s but you are getting a step up in bass and top-end sweetness.