Please do not take this the wrong way. You are obviously very passionate about music and its faithful reproduction in the home.
I personally very rarely listen to large scale orchestral or opera at home as it sounds “strange” to me in a domestic sized space rather than a concert hall sized space.
I am curious how Thrax manages to pull this illusion off? From your other post you are not listening at home in a concert hall sized space. I have only ever heard systems at your price point at audio shows but always in a much less than concert hall sized space and I have never been really convinced with large scale music.
The only time I ever remember turning my head and being convinced an orchestra was there was with a pair of Quad electrostatics I heard in a completely uncontrolled environment whilst wandering around a very large open plan shop floor. It was a long time ago and maybe by memory is playing tricks, but I think it was Harrods in London.
You’re obviously a person of few words.
As you don’t specify much, allow me to remain dubious regarding your claim.
What about the recording? Not all recordings are that great, especially when it comes to orchestral music. What would one or the other of your reference recordings be? (After all, if the source is mediocre …)
How large is your listening space? It’s physically (as in laws of physics) impossible that an average sized room can reproduce the sound of a live performance. Perhaps a large open space might fleetingly conjure up the illusion of a live orchestral performance.
I’ve never yet heard a system that gets the piano sound absolutely right. (I play the piano myself.) There are other instruments that are very difficult to record properly.
I believe that some systems can get very close, but it’s never the real thing. So how close does your system get to the real thing? If you claim (should you want to reply in the first place) that there’s no difference to be heard, I’ll slot that under the category of usual hifi hyperbole. (Of course, that will only be my opinion.)
Due alone to the compromises during recording, chances are slim that the event is captured appropriately.
Yes, I’d visited concerts of the Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks here in Munich, that are available recorded, but just pale on CD - don’t have DSDs or their files, though.
Also have a few audiophile sample recordings of other classical material, that don’t fare much better, either.
Don’t even start me about listening room acoustics after what’s been left post recording.
And only well after that, there’s system considerations, beginning with the transducers first, then analog electronics, then DAC, and I’d totally ignore all digital transport before that -just too benign as to be a contribution.
BTW, there’s not too much difference in outcome with headphones - and I had the chance once to test on the legendary Sennheiser Orpheus system.
I’d be genuinely interested to hear a really tricked out surround sound system trying to pull it off - hadn’t had the chance to do so, yet.
Any heroic fellow audiophile’s efforts considered, it’ll likely never fool anyone into thinking it’s the real thing, but one (me) will always do worse by having to cut corners…
Found the 2 channel 96KHz/24 bit version on Qobuz - next on my today’s playlist…
EDIT:
Really nicely wide and especially deep soundstage, but no fooling me into being at Concertgebouw Amsterdam on my system, of course…
I couldn’t agree more. Anyone who can’t hear the difference between a real symphony orchestra and a recorded one, should consult an otologist - no matter how good their audio gear and room acoustics may be.
Every sound engineer in their right mind knows and admits that all recordings are imperfect. The same is true of all audio systems and listening rooms. The problem is some recordings, systems and rooms are more imperfect than others…
(I edited my post because of a typo. In the original version, I wrote “ontologist” instead of “otologist”. Probably a Freudian slip – I’ve been proofreading my daughter’s term paper on Heidegger… )
I am not an “ordinary” audiophile who buys according to his savings and then regrets and then spends years improving the frequency spectrum, convinces himself that he is right, changes and exchanges his cables, switches from transistors to tubes and back again.
I used to work in the movie industry. So I know image and sound very well, even if I would be a poor technician. I have been surrounded by exceptional people in their way of seeing and hearing. For the past five years, I have been guided by a sound engineer and music producer. I never go to hifi shows or showrooms. I don’t believe any of the arguments developed (for or against) in the forums.
He discovered the THRAX equipment and like him I bought “by episodes” because it has a certain price.Previously we listened on second hand PASS LABS and on FOSTEX GX250MG speakers, and the DAC is a professional equipment from MERGING.
We first changed our BASUS+LYRA speakers, then bought the SPARTACUS amps, then the LIBRA preamp.I would like to point out that during the installation of the speakers, the creator of the brand (Rumen ARTARSKI) was in France and that he came to my home to calibrate the reading curve of the setup because the BASUS subwoofer has its own 1000 Watt amp and a tuning card is accessible.
Finally, I convinced myself that, yes, the power cables could have an influence and I searched for used NORDOST on the Net.
Apart from the speakers I had listened to at my friend’s home (and which were therefore adjusted by the manufacturer at home), I had not listened to either the amps or the preamplifiers that I bought only on the advice of my friend, a demanding professional.
How THRAX does it, I don’t know. But a studied listening room (42 M2), and an excellent placement of the speakers allows to hear perfectly the sound of a classical orchestra, the sound and the placement of the instruments and, sometimes, even the silence around the instruments. When the recording is bad, the sound rendering is bad, I do not blame my system and I do not try to modify it. It is so close to reality that I can hear the different acoustics of the recording perfectly. This is a faithful system and not a system that rounds all the sounds to please to WAF.
On a French forum, I had dared this slogan: “You want the orchestra? Buy THRAX!”
I am not paid by anyone for what I write. Are there enough words?
There is, of course, a difference which is primarily due to the dynamic compression. If an orchestra of 120 people were to enter a room, you would be deafened by the volume of the sound. I didn’t think it was worth noting this in this discussion since it is a point taken for granted by everyone (well, I hope so!)
What should interest a music lover (and not many audiophiles, I think) is the quality of the performance. This is what is to be sought in a musical listening. So hifi hyperbole is not my problem since I am not an audiophile. So why do you understand that I almost never intervene in audiophile (hifi )discussions?
Thank you for for detailed response.
“Une agréable surprise, je dois dire. Vous êtes devenu carrément volubile, alors qu’avant vos propos étaient plutôt laconiques et un tantinet mystérieux.”
Yes, there must be. Obviously, a very good system is able to reduce that difference. If your system does give you the impression that you’re very close to the real thing, then congrats. You did everything right then, and I’m not one to dismiss someone’s lived experience.
I agree very much. I find, though, that the quality of the performance when judged by a recording is dependent on the quality of the recording. Take Furtwängler’s recordings for instance. You’re no doubt aware of the quasi mystical reverence in which he is held by some mélomanes. And I do get the astounding propelling force coupled with infinite rhythmic nuances he brings to some of his readings of the great symphonists. But I can never truly enjoy these performances. No stereo, rather thin sound – the sensuality of the sound (which must have been extraordinary in a live performance) is bleached out.
And if you have a highly resolving system, mediocre recordings are fully revealed as such. With some recordings at least, a less resolving system is actually more enjoyable. A cruel paradox!
Thanks for sharing your experience but a bigger problem is they wouldn’t physically fit in your living room. That is why we have chamber music.
A typical stage for a 120 piece orchestra would be at least 20 meters wide. I generally prefer a balcony seat so in a typical auditorium I must be at least 50 meters from the players.
This is what I have never understood about manufacturer claims of placement and imaging of large scale orchestral ensembles. Any system I have ever heard (including my own) has never really convinced or pulled off that illusion for me in a much smaller domestic environment. I don’t think I am sufficiently motivated to invest in a THRAX (you never know), as I very much prefer smaller scale chamber music in the chamber acoustics of a domestic space. But it is interesting that there is a least one manufacturer able to do do it, although at a price.
I did hear what you describe just once in a very large open space on Quad equipment so it is truly surprising and thrilling. I will certainly check out THRAX one day at the shows.
In my opinion, the THRAX system is designed to be complete = speakers + preamp + amp. This doesn’t make the decision to buy easier, because of the price of course. On the other hand, the equipment must be perfectly presented. In the shows it is often the horror. I listened the speakers three times to the French distributor and three times I refused to buy this “crap” at a price that seemed very excessive. It is when I listened at my sound engineer friend’s place, in an optimal configuration, that I discovered the true qualities of these speakers. Then the rest of the setup followed as I told previously.
If you visit a hifi show, hope that the creator of the brand is present to have done the presentation in the best conditions. Don’t rely too much on listening in a store (especially when the seller is doing his job as a salesman : bla bla bla).
All auditoriums have their own acoustics. The Philharmonie de Paris sounds like a CD: no interest. I invite you to go one day to the new hall of the Münchner Philhamoniker, the Isarphilharmonie (Munich). It is exceptional. And it is true that the timpani will never sound the same in my listening room!
Thank you for reading and commenting. I will now return to the music. Goodbye.
Greetings, do you have a system in mind? I’m intrigued by the Legacy Aeris with their Wavelet DSP, and I’ve read of the Genelecs on ASR, but would like to know of other options. Thanks.
Bill_Janssen
(Wigwam wool socks now on asymmetrical isolation feet!)
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Sorry, no, I’m not that evolved yet. I hear good things about the Dutch & Dutch 8c’s and the ATC line.
There are several issue with listening to a recording of an orchestra at home.
You mention the problem of physical size: that does not directly matter, what matter in recreating the image is the angles. The further away, the narrower the direct sound image. What is harder to recreate is the reflected sound which is where a sense of the space and placement within the space comes from as our ears determine a lot about a space from the relationship between direct and indirect sounds from both time delay and colouring of reflected sound. When listening at home, then there is another space imposed upon what you hear - your listening room. The more of your own room you hear, then the most confused the sense of the original recording space may be.
Another problem is that is you want to recreate a balcony experience, well the mics need to be there and mic positions for recording an orchestra vary quite alot. A pair of mics near the conductor (just behind) is quite common along with additional spot mics for sections, soloists and even sometimes far mics for ambiance. All of these will be used to create a resulting mix which often is focussed near the conductor and sometimes feel artificially close to various sections and soloists as well so the static sense of the space may be mix up.
Either way, what you listen to at home is often a manufactured sonic representation to favour overall balance and clarity and as such it can never recreate the experience of being at a specific location in the hall. Conversely, being in the hall many never grant you the clarity of a well recorded and mixed recording.
I think aiming for exact likeness is asking too much unless your favoured position in a hall is as close to the conductor as possible and it was a relative simple recording and production.
For a specific location, then spatial sound like dolby atmos should help (by providing directional direct sound recreation of original space’s direct sound and reflections), but again it depends on the recording (mic positions) and production and at best will still represent a specific listening position in a hall.
At home, I think it is best to aim for the most enjoyable sounding system you can and accept that it will nearly always be different.
Some interesting points but as I say I personally have only ever heard an even vaguely convincing symphony orchestra just once in a large space (not mine) on electrostatics (Quad). That was by accident and I remember being quite startled. I guess I just don’t even get the concept of listening to a 120 piece orchestra in my living room. I actually switch off roon radio when listening to classical for this reason as roon doesn’t seem to distinguish the small forces chamber music I choose to listen to from the large forces orchestral it will often propose.
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