Why using a phoenix if the usb DAC is correctly done?
From what I’ve read in the comments the NuC capabilities also vary the sound rendering, right?
I find that I have several Mac Mini’s around the house at any given time. Even an old one can have a 4-way 2 GHz or more Core i7 with 16 GB and a your preferred size internal (some disassembly and re-assembly required) or external SSD. They’re already paid for. Even cheaper than an off-Amazon new machine.
And in two different homes, with two different machines, no Roon problems at all. In one home, the Mini drives a minidsp SHD (basically, Volumio) over ethernet, which directly drives a pair of Kii Three’s as the main system; or a Cambridge AVR250 directly connected (as a secondary system, with Celestion SL600 Si’s) and the TV; and the occasional desktop RPi (volumio) over ethernet. Works fine.
In the other home, there’s an ethernet connection to a NAD C658 (for the living room with TV); and a NAD M10 with Kef R7’s connecetd (alas) over Wifi. Wifi is hard in this place - thick stone walls - and for some reason the original builders didn’t wire it for ethernet (tho’ I’m contemplating getting that done). Use a Linksys Velop mesh…
But in neither case is there any detectable performance issue. If someone wants to go the same route, then folk like macsales.com will happily sell you a used Mac Mini and configure it (RAM and SSD) for you, generally for less than $800, and it will work when you get it, needing only a Roon install.
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Hello, I had a mac mini, then macbook pro and I tested with my iMac Pro and in end point a SOTM200 neo, each time Innuos sense is in front.
I deduce that even with a very powerful machine like the Imacpro and a roon ready endpoint, there is a quality setback for Roon, we just have to admit it.
On the Innuos, I don’t have any particular problem of functioning, it’s just slow and all the updates have always gone admirably well without any problem despite the fact that this device is neither roon ready, nor roon tested, and not powerful enough.
One week without Roon and I’m still alive, and I rediscover my music 
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Jean-Luc
I was more commenting on ‘another way of getting cheap but competent hardware’ than your perception that Roon changes sound quality. But here goes anyway:
I’m unfortunately one of those people who are data driven. I know that data packets arrive at my MiniDSP SHD uncorrupted from their passage over the home network. Plus, if they didn’t, nobody could ever listen to Tidal or Qobuz - or any other streaming service - because the packets would be damaged over the much noisier and time-jittered internet…
If you don’t know the MiniDSP SHD, it’s basically a small network-handling computer linked to a separate computer (I think) which runs Volumio, acts as a Roon end point, and drives SP-DIF outputs; I use the balanced output for the Kii’s; all in one box, with - important for my use case - a digital volume control. The Kii’s are DSP-managed active loudspeakers.
The network hardware in the SHD either collects a correct packet, with correct data, or does not. The data is buffered internally before being played with by the software which eventually transmits its contents to the Kii’s. As long as the packet arrives at the SHD and is captured, the internal jitter, noise, whatever of the source has no effect on the contents of the packet; and its timing is a matter for the SHD, not the sender.
All this is because the server and the SHD are connected by tens of meters of ethernet cable, and hardware which is naturally electrically isolating. If I connected the SHD to the Mini with an electrical TOSLink wire, there would be other issues, and it’s possible that then noise, jitter, of the platform (the Innuos story) etc could play a part.
So unless Roon Inc are flat out lying (in that they change the music bits without telling me), or grossly incompetent (their software changes the music bits without them realising it does) then the fact that the music is being played by Roon on a given hardware platform is irrelevant to what the SHD gets.
However, you hear a difference. I am driven - from the above - to believe that the difference arises from something other than Roon. It would be interesting to discover what.
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Hello Pete
I’m not saying that Roon is lying, I’m just saying that there is a clear difference in sound rendering.
I agree with you on the data, sending them…but we must not forget that a HiFi reproduction system is a succession of device accumulation, of different powers, of different utility more or less well implemented, and for example of different distortions. All this becomes a simple relative question of composition of audio system increased by the function of the listener which itself is quite relative in relation to its culture, its feeling (we should add in first the listening rooms).
I appreciate Roon and have always recommended it, the 1.8 upgrade brings its share of new interesting design, the added functions are of little interest to me.
Indeed, if we remove the passion of Roon VS Innuos there remains the difference of sound rendering and its origin. The data arriving on the same device and being sent to the same DAC by the same cable, why the listening is different and it is in this sense that I wanted to alert Roon, I posted a message, sent several mails to the support, but well the return remains around the material which is not correct to make Roon work. Ok no worries, I’m not going to take the head, and start to change everything, to make endless tests, so I listen with Innuos Sense and the rest of the discoveries is done via roon or qobuz, it’s very simple
Music first.
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To clarify my comments on the difference in sound rendering I would say that the improvement is on the sound stage that I perceive deeper and more realistic, perceiving distant instruments that previously were masked by a tonal imbalance that tended to give a little too much advantage to the low and medium low.
I am aware that these details require a relatively quiet listening room and a transparent system and that of course there is something to be heard in this type of detail.
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I’m another Roon Lifetime subscriber that has reached the same conclusions as you. The Innuos Sense 2.0.x Player sounds noticeably better. When Nuno suggested I give it a try, I was skeptical. I tried it and haven’t looked back. I love the SQ from the Innuos Zenith SE and don’t want to do a klugey workaround with another device serving as Roon Core and then Squeeze-boxing and then…, to accommodate the Roon player for the Innuos Zenith SE.
OTOH, Roon still rocks in music organization, discovery, archiving and recovery of liner notes, which I greatly enjoy reading. Helps deepen the listening process.
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And Innuos Sense still doesn’t support Tidal and is on the fence, leaning negative, as to whether they’ll ever support Tidal Masters. Besides buggy Roon Experimental mode, this places Innuos out of the running for me no matter what Sense sounds like. Innuos just not an option, so now a happy Antipodes owner.
One of Innuos’ dealers told me that Innuos servers always were aimed primarily at LAN play while Antipodes, Lumin and NUC of course are oriented to streaming as well.
I would say local playback not over LAN considering its both player and server. Lots of users have commented that Qobuz via Sense doesn’t sound that good compared to local playback so perhaps some truth to your statement.
Innuos have also added a new offline mode that turns off internet access completely and users say this give a bit more to the already improved sq with their new player and os. They key to Innuos player seems to be to keep network activity to a minimum. It’s not constantly using network activity to find endpoints and remotes like Roon, it’s strictly as and when it’s needed and this seems to pay dividends for the users.
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Forwarded to Innuos. Just curious and skeptical re: claim that Innuos servers were aimed primarily at LAN. I find improvements in SQ for both LAN and streaming with InnuOS 2.0.5 player. Know that this doesn’t help re: Tidal.
Ah ah, well the main thing is that we enjoy ourselves with the material invested, since it is only personal appreciation and that everyone is happy since we are all different.
You shouldn’t believe 100% the retailers either…
We were talking about data before and as an audiophile we have a certain approach that is certainly biased by our ignorance of the subject. I was talking with the designer of the Audiomat dac and his approach is very different from what we think, and considering the time spent to take care of and optimize the different input points, we are far from realizing the work done…
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I can only agree; roon service is also quiet poor, lost a playlist, and got no support.
I think as soon as my roon subscribtion is running out, i will leave roon and switch to innuos.
I had always great support from innuos.
Also good luck to roon
‘uninstalling the Roon app, closing down the iPad and restarting it and reinstalling the Roon app’ ; i made this and lost my playlist; what a great success!
I good reason to change to Qobuz, if tidal is not willing; i also use tidal and enjoy tidal, but…
I have Qobuz and never use it; the only reason I pay for it is to support a service that believes in high resolution. Tidal Masters sound substantially better and they are what I listen to, in general.
What do you mean by “Tidal not willing”? The choice to fail to develop Tidal is entirely made by Innuos, not Tidal.
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I don’t know if Tidal is better than Qobuz or vice versa, I tried both and stayed with Qobuz simply because the searches are easier in classical music and somehow they are the first to offer such a quality in streaming.
Listening to a lot of classical music, it’s quite a complicated battle to find what you want. Searching in English, French or even German, the results differ and Roon is no exception to the rule as are the other platforms.
Qobuz, on this side, makes my life a little easier in the choice of catalog and for lack of HiRes, very old recordings of classical music of the BNF (Bibliothèque Nationale de France) abounds in very beautiful interpretation even in mono
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Please be aware that importing your saved music into InnuOS Sense 2.0.5 can result in ~ 40% loss of personally owned and streaming service albums. This is a known issue with current version InnuOS. Best to stick with Roon for archiving purposes for now. Roon does most things better than Sense, except for the one thing I value most, Playback sound quality from an InnuOS Zenith SE.
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After you reinstalled Roon, you did a Restore, right?
I don’t feel the need to proselytize or convince anyone. But if you can get a over-specd NUC server and a good quality streamer that sounds better and functions better than Innuos with Roon, then why have InnuOS gear?? I ran this experiment and my Zenith Mk3 + PhoenixUSB lost the comparison battle against an Azulle Inspire i5 mini PC, then an Intel NUC10 i7 + Sonore UltraRendu or Lumin U1 Mini. With the money saved by ditching Innuos you can get a great DAC and in some cases with money left over.
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Good for you if you have found the best solution to use Roon, I hope that this change has occurred by comparing your Nuc and Innuos sense because the latest update of Innuos allows a significant gap in quality and has nothing to do with previous listening if this is not the case it’s a shame for you.
Concerning the DAC I have an Audiomat maestro3 and I hope it is powerful enough to interpret the data that are transmitted to it.
So why buy Innuos?
- It’s an all in one. CD ripper, storage, Ethernet switch, streamer and finally has a fabulous player
- it is installed in a few minutes, no computer knowledge is required
- if you have a problem, the support is very reactive and can even act remotely to diagnose your installation
- the service does not exploit my data which is important for the respect of the private life (the music being a moment of relaxation, that bothers me in fact that this moment becomes a moment of gain for others that the artists who made the music)
- the design of the devices is rather nice
- their application is well designed and does not bug
…
But as Roon and Innuos don’t seem to be compatible and Roon doesn’t test Innuos listening, it’s impossible to get an answer that covers all possibilities. So mine is for the moment to not use Roon anymore.