HQP and not HQP related - upsampling

Audio Gear Talk HQ Player
23

When you write about making adjustments in Roon and in HQP do you mean adjusting HQP within Roon? Or within Desktop 4?

Don’t ask me how but I have both Desktop and Client up and running and converting to DSD, without Roon.

HQP is set as you suggest, 44.1k x 256. The HQP client reads that it is sending 5.6 and that is what my DAC reads too. I cannot recall right now whether this is 256 or 128. If it is not 256, I will try again to get thru to Audiolab support tomorrow. I was too late today.

Thank you kindly for your patience and support.

24

Make adjustments to Roon DSP in the Roon DSP Engine.

Once Roon is setup for HQP for your device (as it is) then you don’t need to further adjust Roon/Device Settings.

Make adjustments to HQP Settings in HQP Desktop.

If Sample Rate Conversion is turned off in Roon, your DAC is reporting that it is receiving DSD 256 and you can hear music then we are there ! Congratulations :grinning:.

25

I don’t think we are there. I wrote that my DAC and HQP Client were reporting DSD output of 5.6. If it’s 256 should it not be 11.2 or 11 something?

26

Yes. DSD 128 is 5.6MHz. DSD 256 is 11.2 MHz.

What setting are you using in HQP Desktop Settings/SDM Default/Bit Rate ?

27

I looked and either I am tired or just can’t decipher what you have asked.

I chose 44.1 x 256. The Client shows 11.2 but nothing will play.

When I choose 44.1k x 128 it plays. Very well I might add. I also realise I do not need EQ. It’s best to listen to the album as is. Stupidly, I was wanting to use as many features as possible since it cost so much!

However, the upsampling is a BIG plus with both programs. I guess I shall either use HQP as is or as I can thru Roon until I decide what to do when my year’s rental of Roon is up.

Why is it beneficial to use both?

It just occurred to me to take a file and make a DSD256 copy of it and see if it plays. If it doesn’t then the DAC is the problem OR could it be the MBP? Maybe it’s audio card or whatever it is won’t process 256?
It just seems unlikely that the DAC is at fault.

28

OK.

What setting are you using in HQP Desktop Settings for SDM Pack ? If it says "none’ try changing it to ‘DoP’ and see if that works or vice versa.

If changing SDM Pack doesn’t work, take a screenshot of your HQP Desktop Settings and post it here and we’ll see if we can find a problem.

You could try and play a DSD 256 file to check your DAC, but I’m not sure how to create such a file or if anyone sells DSD 256 files for download.

Do you have oversampling turned on in your DAC ? If you are upsampling in HQP then your DAC can be set to non-oversampling or some other neutral setting. If there is no control to that effect then don’t worry about it.

I’m not going to try and talk you into using HQP. I use it because I prefer the sound on my system using the filters and modulators in HQP over those provided in Roon. You must listen to HQP and to Roon without HQP and make up your own mind.

29

Yes that is the conclusion my husband came to. I already thought so but needed blind tester. He much preferred the HQP sound and when I told him the cost of it he said ‘well if it can make my music sound like that it is worth every penny’. Literally. And he rarely praises anything. I was shocked. Really. I thought I knew what he would say when I told him the price. I was completely wrong. I did notice he had ‘gone’ when he was listening so I knew he liked it. Even I could tell the violin and piano highs didn’t set my teeth on edge. and listening to Carly earlier, upsampled also to DSD 128, the sound was amazing, so clear, and no need at all for EQ.

I think there is something not right with my DAC. Even Audirvana rejects 256 and plys it at PCM 384. Media Centre crashes within seconds of starting to play a 256 file.

Oh, yes, I converted a whole album to DSD256, and Roon downgraded it to 128.

I asked a question earlier but can’t recall if it was in this thread. The answer I got was not the answer to my question as I clearly didn’t word it correctly.

I asked if instead of using the MBP internal 1TB SSD drive to store my library, and get Roon to play from the external drive, would this wear out the external drive more quickly than using the internal drive? I do have several fast, Thunderbolt 3 drives which will work well as they are really fast, copied my 500gb music folder in 4mins. I also keep a copy of the music folder and my photography on the NAS and the photos on one other drive. So I have my muisc folders on at least 5 drives. Can you tell I lost my only back up once?

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30

Did you try changing SDM Pack in HQP Desktop Settings to see if that made a difference to your DAC playing DSD 256 ?

If that doesn’t make a difference, then you should check with the DAC manufacturer as to what more is required to play DSD 256.

Assuming your external Thunderbolt drives are SSD you shouldn’t be worried about wearing them out with read operations. SSD reliability is expressed in number of writes. Reads have such little effect on SSD durability that they don’t bother mentioning it. This is great for audio which is an archetypal write once read many usage.

31

Yes, if DoP is not on, then it won’t play DSD at all. It plays DSD128 or 64 nd it will downmix to 128 from 256.

I am awaiting some info from Audiolab regarding this. It’s several different players this is happening with. Most report that it only does up to 384khz PCM and up to DSD 128.

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32

It is pretty straightforward to setup parametric EQ in RoomEq Wizard and export the impulse response as WAV for convolution…

33

Are you on macOS? If yes, then you’ll need DoP to have DSD playback because CoreAudio doesn’t support DSD. If maximum PCM rate is 384k, then DSD128 is maximum you can get with DoP. It could be that on Windows they have ASIO drivers allowing also DSD256 since ASIO natively supports DSD without DoP.

34

Yes I am and you just confirmed what my gut has been telling me: it’s the MacOs that cannot handle DSD256. This is okay because neither of us hanker after DSD256! I was just wondering why it wouldn’t work.

You know more than the tech guy from Audiolab who very kindly sent me detailed instructions today but failed himself to realise what you did and what my gut was telling me.

Oh and as for EQ, I shan’t bother with it as I have been listening without any EQ and it sounds great. I guess the way the program or the original musicians played is just how it’s supposed to be heard.

I give you a copy here of my settings. Clearly I need to change the 44.1/256 but is there anything else that is wrong?

I note that the Desktop or mClient, can’t recall has a cd option. Does this mean that a cd in the 8300cdq can be processed with Roon and HQP? If so, how?

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35

It’s not macOS, but the DAC. For example RME ADI-2 can do DSD256 on Mac. And some iFi devices too. But it requires DAC to support 705.6/768k PCM in order to work. But partially reason is waste of bandwidth due to needing DoP which is macOS’ fault of course.

Leave “DAC bits” to “Default”. Depending whether you want PCM or DSD output you should select either one as “Default Output Mode”. Now it is set to output PCM, resulting in 384k PCM output. Also set “Multicore DSP” to grayed (auto). Other than that, looks good to me.

36

But the DAC does support DSD256 so why won’t it play it?

Thank you for the other info. Will change it now.

37

I don’t un derstand this. How can it be the DAC? The blurb about the DAC and the owner manual both say it plays up to DSD256. It is illegal to say it does when it doesn’t.

38

IYour DAC will play DSD256 if you connect it with a Windows PC, with a special software driver installed.
That software driver is available for download at your dac’s manufacturer website (or at least a reference where to download).
This will allow your Windows PC to play Native DSD.
So your DAC manufacturer is not doing anything illegal.

MACOS, the operating system running on your Mac, does not suppot native DSD.
It needs to put the DSD packets into a PCM stream (encapsulate) .
This way to transport DSD packets is called DoP - DSD over PCM.

Here is what DCS has to say (rather technical):

FAQ: What is DoP (DSD over PCM)?

The original idea for DoP was invented by dCS in 2011. It involves taking groups of 16 adjacent 1-bit samples from a DSD stream and packing them into the lower 16 bits of a 24/176.4 data stream. Data from the other channel of the stereo pair is packed the same way. A specific marker code in the top 8 bits identifies the data stream as DoP, rather than PCM. The resulting DoP stream can be transmitted through existing 24/192-capable USB, AES, Dual AES or SPDIF interfaces to a DoP-compatible DAC, which reassembles the original stereo DSD data stream COMPLETELY UNCHANGED.

So DoP needs quite some extra bandwith (extra pakkets) in order to deliver the DSD packets correctly to your Dac.

In fact, DSD64 (as used on SACD-players/albums) corresponds with a PCM bandwidth of +/- 174kHz/16bit.
DSD128 corresponds with a PCM bandwidth of +/- 348kHz/16it
If your dac supports PCM384kHz/16bit, iand it supports DoP, it should be able to play DSD128.

However, if you look at DSD256, which correspinds with a PCM bandwidth of 696kHz/16it , your DAC needs to support 705.6/768k PCM in order to work , as Jussi explained before.

To conclude, your DAC can play DSD256, using a Windows PC as the music player (with the right driver installed).
From your Audiolab 83000CDQ manual:
Install the Audiolab Audio Driver from the CD-ROM provided as accessory. The
installation instructions are burnt on the CD-ROM, please refer to the file when
installing the software. Connect your computer to 8300CD via USB cable (type A
to Type B), change the Play mode to USB input using the handset or the button on
the front panel.
“Unlocked” will be displayed if no input signal for USB. The Play with digital
inputs will lock onto the input data when there is an input signal for USB. The
display screen will then indicate the presence of a digital signal and show the
output sampling frequency of the music file in your computer.

On the cd-Rom delivered with your dac, you most probably will only find a driver for Windows only.
It is unfortunate that Audiolab is not specifying this in the specifications and/or in the manual.
It is also a pitty that they do not mention DoP either.

Dirk

39

Thank you kindly, Dirk. No way am I returning to Windows just for this, tho I could as I have a few W laptops laying around.

I am not going to lose by not being able to play higher than 384khz PCM or DSD256. I was frustrated that it appeared not to do what it says. So my feeling it is the MacOs that won’t allow it was right. I think I may have inadvertently said it was the DAC when I meant the MacOs.

I just bought the laptop with the 4 thunderbolts on it for music and Roon so I am not about to swap it for a Windows.

The only change I am possibly going to make is have Roon use my Samsung X5 as the music store. It is cheaper to replace than the laptop. Tho I always seem to find a good reason to replace the laptop. I am annoyed with myself for buying the 1tb laptop with only 2 ports but to give myself a break I was still confined to a hospital bed unable to move cos of plaster up to my groin and my head not quite back. Since we cannot go to Frankfurt at the end of the month, I figured that saved us £5000 so…

I do have a Windows that I use for knitwear design as the program I use with cables to download to my machines is Windows tho I can use it via Parallels but I tried that at least 8 years ago and it messed up my Mac so I bought a Windows with a tv sized screen cos I ned to be able see what is happening as I knit. It also enables me to design my hand knitted Arans which is a great help. When I feel up to it, if ever, I’ll have to upgrade to W10 I think and continue where I left off. It’s a matter of recalling it all. It took 3 years to retrain my fingers to knit again so I wonder about using the machines. They are two different crafts. So many think machine knitting is just a fast way to hand knit. No, it’s a whole craft on it’s own.

There I go off on a tangent again.

Back to Roon. I have added several new to me artists to my collection in just the last week and even more amazing is how pleasant I am finding John’s music. Last evening we listened to very long album of singing by the Oxford mixed Gender Choir. Very nice indeed. Brain damage has it’s perks it seems.

Anyway, I really appreciate your input.

40

Here is a shot of what my settings look now. It looks to me like I may have done it correctly and it is only HQP that is processing the music.

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41

@Knitman
Looks good.
I don’t use volume leveling myself…personal choice.

Congrats!

42

I didn’t choose it, at least not knowingly. What does it do and where can I stop it.

Thank you for telling me I had found the route to HQP only.