MQA General Discussion

Yes, I did and do listen to MQA. I subscribe to Tidal.
I bought a Meridian Explorer2 Dac at last years Black Friday sale.

I dont do the “we” talk here.
I am worried about each and every point in that Linn paper. Even before that paper was published.
That paper summarizes points many people dislike, so its not only a Linn position.
To be worried about something is different from fearing something.
I have no reason to fear MQA.
But I reject the philosophy behind it as its presented right now.
And besides that, I agree to your points.

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Yes MQA is losssy but only in areas it doesn’t really matter. Up to 48k its virtually lossless, only becoming lossy on the rare occasion the touch-up channel overloads. Above that its virtually all noise so interpolating via say simple linear interpolation combined with the triangle sampling MQA uses is inaudible.

Thanks
Bill

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Bill, I’m sure the lossy part is inaudible. It’s just the OCD part of my brain that has trouble with it.
I do like the sound of MQA on Tidal though. Certainly better overall than CD rips.

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Depending how much information above the 20kHz, channel overload will happen if there’s too much to information it can handle. Up to 96kHz (48kHz) is pretty safe if no channel overload occurs but above 192k (96k) and 384k (192k) is going to be big challenge while maintaining a constant bit rate of 1.5Mbps.

For streaming this is important, maintaining a constant bit rate does not hog the internet bandwidth while giving users better CD quality. For digital downloads I prefer to go unauthented master copy, this ensures what I’m getting is the original performance.

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I understand - I get a bit that way myself.

The cure is comparing it to redbook and seeing what you think.

Thanks
Bill

100% for sue - actually above 48k its very likely to overload, in fact for the reasons I give below I am not even sure they worry about the touch-up above 48k.

To understand why it doesn’t matter you have to go into the details of a typical recording which is done here:
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=17501

Above about 50k the peak noise content and music content is about the same level so if that is quite lossy its inaudible.

The reason you try to reproduce it is it affects timing which the human ear is sensitive to. You have to use a brick wall filter to prevent aliasing and they ring which is very audible - that’s the whole idea behind MQA they don’t use brick wall filters - its a very gentle filter. That means you have to transmit very high bit-rate info but it doesn’t have to be that accurate. Simple linear interpolation is good enough.

Thanks
Bill

I agreed with you, Bill, most of recordings don’t contain much music contents above 60kHz, So it is lesser issue here. If it does overload and goes into lossy mode, it is virtually inaudible at such a high frequency. Time domain distortion such as ‘ringing’ plays a significant part of the music contents and I’m glad it is addressed here.

If it can offer an alternative non compressed format (for digital downloads) but with timing issues taken care of then it will give users a wider choice to choose. No more ‘OCD’.

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yep couldn’t agree more-in some ways Todd Rundgren’s ‘BLEEDING’/‘To Far Gone’ sounds wonderful in MQA from ROON(blue light and 2 white lights on ME2) as does same songs from same TIDAL MQA playlists on Audirvana 2+ with 3 white lights-SQ is ‘different’ but still really wonderful psychologically both sound better-I sort of prefer ‘botdth of dem’.
Overall my sacd’s and dvd-a’s sound a lot better but I have to find them unpack them put them in my cd/sacd/dvd-a changer remember which buttons to push on my Gungnir or what they are plugged into on my avr 7 channel setup and then when finished put them away- WHEW a lot of work and then when I compare them to MQA ‘Driving with the King’ or American Beauty/Workingman’s Dead’ they sound superb ie almost as good maybe better? and less exhausting to to play and enjoy

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Well, today I listened on Tidal to Howlin’ For You by Black Keys on regular lossess followed immediately by the MQA version. MQA clearly sounded better, and it wasn’t subtle. MQA version wasn’t high res, only the blue led was lit on my Explorer2.
The dac is fed to a Schiit Magni 2, Audeze Sine headphones.

So to me this is all I need to know.

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Turn Blue is also 44.1 and sounds terrific. Really enjoying it a lot.

In coming to that conclusion, I am curious how you accounted for and normalized the differences between the two different masterings for Tidal HiFi and MQA.

Below are statistics for the first 30 seconds of “Howlin’ For You:”


Statistics for: Howlin_HiFi
Number of samples: 1323000
Duration: 0:30

             Left              Right

Peak Value: -6.33 dB — -6.33 dB
Avg RMS: -14.23 dB — -13.85 dB
DR channel: 7.34 dB — 6.79 dB


Statistics for: Howlin_MQA
Number of samples: 1323003
Duration: 0:30

             Left              Right

Peak Value: -6.10 dB — -5.75 dB
Avg RMS: -14.23 dB — -13.86 dB
DR channel: 7.49 dB — 7.31 dB

Note the differences in peak value stereo balance and dynamic range between HiFi and MQA. Those differences are not attributable to MQA. Different masterings. Apples to oranges comparison.

AJ

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A I was thinking about why there is so much confusion about what MQA is, s much conflating of various technologies, and I think there is an easier way to describe it. I think I can point to well established parallels in another field.

MQA has three components.

A. Correct various errors in the original analog to digital conversion.
B. Correct various errors in the endpoint digital to analog conversion.
C. Reduce bandwidth requirements of a high resolution content.

These are really independent and could be applied independently. Their ultimate goal is similar, so they are discussed together.

A. Correcting for errors is commonplace in many areas. Not difficult to understand, and should not be controversial. When we do room correction, it is common to get a calibrated microphone (like the $75 MiniDSP UMIK-1); these are not perfectly flat because that is difficult and expensive, but the manufacturer measures them and provides a calibration file which allows the RC software to correct for the errors.

Another example: in photography, lenses introduce various errors, like geometric distortion (straight lines appear curved) or chromatic abberation (purple or green fringes). Eliminating them is costly and makes the lenses large and heavy. But software like Adobe Photoshop and Lightroom include correction for these errors: unlike our field, digital photographs have rich metadata including the lens and camera model, focal length for zoom lenses, aperture etc. and Photoshop has lens profiles that permits automatic correction. Very valuable: in product reviews you often read language like “the lens has CA at large aperture but this is of course easily corrected.” Some manufacturers build the corrections into their camera software which lets them make other engineering choices, not just lower price but small size and weight, faster autofocus, etc. Note that this correction does not involve upsampling; Photoshop includes upsampling, with different algorithms (like our filters) optimized for different goals, but that is an unrelated feature, on a different menu, you can apply lens correction or upsampling or both.

If you have older photos, maybe scans of film photos, and of not have built-in metadata, things are more difficult. Maybe you can measure the old equipment if you have access to it, or you can eyeball it.

That is a pretty direct parallel to MQA ADC correction.

B. In photography we also routinely compensate for limitations on the output side. Photoshop has profiles of printers, inks and papers, and can adjust colors and sharpness for different specific output channels and for specific psycho-visual or artistic goals.

To extend the parallel, printers and printer drivers often include their own corrections for similar goals. You can ignore the problem and leave it to the printer manufacturer, you can use a combination (e.g. sharpen for the print purpose but let the driver do color adjustment), of turn off all device processing and take complete charge in the software.

C. The origami technique is a form of compression. It works in a way different from most existing techniques. The goal is to support high quality sound at bandwidth that is higher than the goal of MP3 twenty years ago, but still low enough to work for streaming.

We can see a few conclusions from this way of thinking about it.

None of the steps alters the sampling rate. It is not upsampling. This is why we see MQA content at all resolutions, even 44k.

It might be worthwhile to also do upsampling, or increase the bit depth. We know the benefits and limitations of these techniques. But they are independent of the compensation for AD and DA conversion flaws. Again, just like in photography.

If we understand clearly what the techniques and goals are for each of the three steps, we can then evaluate, for each of the three techniques:

  1. Is it worthwhile? Does it address a problem that matters?
  2. Is it effective, does it achieve its goal?
  3. Does it operate without harmful side effects, from a technical and sound quality perspective?
  4. Are there unattractive commercial effects?

I think the Photoshop parallel illustrates why these should not be difficult to understand, or controversial. Compensating for upstream or downstream aberrations are well established techniques.

Will MQA lead to all systems sounding the same? Lens correction in Photoshop has certainly not led to all lenses being the same, although it has led to certain aberrations being less important and tradable against other attributes.

There is also the question of why these techniques are combined in one solution. E.g. why can’t we apply the origami compression without the time smear correction? Or time smear without origami? And why not include others, like room correction? I think the answer to these is partially about consistent goals, and partially about commercial viability. Ultimately these are MQA business decisions, which will be successful or not. But the field is certainly open for anybody to compete with alternate solutions, with different engineering and business trade offs.

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Here are a few more randomly selected Tidal HiFi vs MQA 30 second statistical comparisons:

Fleetwood Mac “Landslide:”

Statistics for: Landslide_HiFi
Number of samples: 1323000
Duration: 0:30

             Left              Right

Peak Value: -15.61 dB — -15.47 dB
Avg RMS: -30.69 dB — -29.19 dB
DR channel: 9.43 dB — 9.79 dB


Statistics for: Landslide_MQA
Number of samples: 1323000
Duration: 0:30

             Left              Right

Peak Value: -15.45 dB — -13.55 dB
Avg RMS: -29.55 dB — -27.53 dB
DR channel: 10.05 dB — 10.55 dB

“Landslide” HiFi and MQA are different masterings. Apples to apples MQA listening comparisons are not possible.

Blur “Parklife:”

Statistics for: Parklife_HiFi
Number of samples: 1323000
Duration: 0:30

             Left              Right

Peak Value: -6.30 dB — -6.29 dB
Avg RMS: -18.34 dB — -18.16 dB
DR channel: 10.05 dB — 9.73 dB


Statistics for: Parklife_MQA
Number of samples: 1323000
Duration: 0:30

             Left              Right

Peak Value: -6.10 dB — -6.10 dB
Avg RMS: -18.15 dB — -17.96 dB
DR channel: 10.05 dB — 9.73 dB

“Parklife” HiFi and MQA are the same mastering. However, MQA has been level adjusted +0.20 dB. Apples to apples MQA listening comparisons are possible with level normalization.

The Doors “People Are Strange:”

Statistics for: PeopleAreStrange_HiFi
Number of samples: 1323000
Duration: 0:30

             Left              Right

Peak Value: -6.52 dB — -6.12 dB
Avg RMS: -21.72 dB — -21.87 dB
DR channel: 11.54 dB — 12.36 dB


Statistics for: PeopleAreStrange_MQA
Number of samples: 1323000
Duration: 0:30

             Left              Right

Peak Value: -10.09 dB — -10.74 dB
Avg RMS: -23.97 dB — -25.22 dB
DR channel: 10.34 dB — 11.45 dB

“People Are Strange” HiFi and MQA are different masterings. Apples to apples MQA listening comparisons are not possible.

David Bowie “Young Americans:”

Statistics for: YoungAmericans_HiFi
Number of samples: 1323000
Duration: 0:30

             Left              Right

Peak Value: -6.32 dB — -6.30 dB
Avg RMS: -19.52 dB — -19.44 dB
DR channel: 11.69 dB — 11.62 dB


Statistics for: YoungAmericans_MQA
Number of samples: 1323000
Duration: 0:30

             Left              Right

Peak Value: -6.04 dB — -6.01 dB
Avg RMS: -19.25 dB — -19.17 dB
DR channel: 11.70 dB — 11.62 dB

“Young Americans” HiFi and MQA are the same mastering. However, MQA has been level adjusted +0.27 dB. Apples to apples MQA listening comparisons are possible with level normalization.

In summary, the above statistics show that legitimate listening comparisons between Tidal HiFi and MQA may be difficult to achieve. Perceived differences may be attributable to different masterings or different recorded levels, not necessarily to MQA enhancements.

AJ

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Who cares, if it streams and sounds great. Also considered to be the definitive master.

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Brilliant analogy that cuts to the heart of things. Well written, thank you.

Those who are interested in legitimate scientific comparisons care. Those who want to know the provenance of their music care. Those who do not want to have their perceptions of audio qualities misled or swamped by mastering and level differences care. Those who just want to listen to their music and be happy in their own beliefs, on the other hand, may not care.

Also, no, MQA has no claims on the “definitive master.” Nothing does.

AJ

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The ‘Master’ in MQA is deemed to be Authenticated as the Studio sound approved by the Artist/Copyright owners.
Now people can and will dispute this which is OK. Perhaps enough pressure for a different mix of a particular album will bear fruit. I could care less on one particular album that I have over listened to over the years anyways.
There is too much new music to discover and life is finite. Also Companies love to re sell their product and it’s their right to do so. (There is always new and improved)

Those of us who like MUSIC just want to hear a great recording and those who love to be analytical, build their own systems in Hot Rod style are having a field day with all the options and opportunities available today. (I am sure they also enjoy Music) This is the joy of the hobby we all share.

I always remember the tag line ‘Hot Rod or Hi Fi’? That Meridian used years ago when they were selling the idea of an end to end system.
It sold the philosophy to me and has saved me a fortune over the years as I have had no desire to upgrade for a long time.
Just thoughts from a non analytical brain. :sunglasses:

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I agree with a number of your points. It could be summarised that MQA sounds better than other formats because the mix is superior and therefore more pleasing to the ear. This could account for a large amount of the improvement and as you point out it is hard to compare tracks that aren’t identical. On the other hand you could argue that any improvements that are made is a bonus regardless of the actual claim. I for one would’t want a lower grade mix to be released purely for the purpose of making a comparison when a higher grade mix was an alternative and if this is a bi-product of the new format then I’m happy with that too.

I liked you usage of data and found it interesting. Would you be able to do the same for any high definition tracks that are also available on MQA? This might make a more useful comparison as I’m pretty sure that one of the claims is that MQA should trump all available formats.

Cheers
Tom

Well, I care, because I like to know why differences exist, not blithely put everything down to Saint Bob of Stuart.

Do you really believe that these current releases have not been converted en masse by some batch process?

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