New (was back in 2021) iFi Zen Stream device

[David_Snyder]

Unrelated, USB “input” on the ZEN Stream seems to do a fine job powering my Topping E50 DAC. Not clear if the E50 performs better when powered by a USB port that is equipped with iFi’s Active Noise Cancellation (ANC II), but I figure it can’t hurt. Looks like there’s adequate voltage and current:

Is anyone else using the 2nd USB port on the ZS to power a DAC or something other than a storage device? I wonder what the rated current is for this port. So far, 0.1 A has not been an issue.

Edit: looks like I’m not the first person to think of doing this.

Can the ZEN Stream power my DAC via USB output? - iFi audio

[Michael_Harris]

I have a Zen Dac that is occasionally powered from the Stream, usually when the iFi Power cable has fallen out (normally me routing around the cables). It is hard to tell much audible difference now, though I am fairly sure there was quite a difference when I first had it.
Good to know it works well though and that I am not losing much if anything when the cable falls out.

[kim_hixson (Kimmerdog)]

I do not own the Zen, I have never even auditioned it. I looked to it as an affordable gateway to full MQA decoding and rendering many months ago, but the incredible amount of negative feedback concerning its’ misleading advertising, inconsistent performance and perhaps inept tech support led me away from a purchase.

What is intriguing to me is the sheer amount of back-and-forth arguing over the Zen. Really, ifi must look at this thread and be counting the $$$ of free advertising. Even a negative comment is going to generate interest, as in “I want to see this for myself” sensibilities.

[Moderated]. I suppose I am not passionate enough to get into a verbal joust over hardware. Others certainly appear to be, as is their right! I just think the bottom line is free advertising for ifi. Feel free to dismember me now, it is highly readable stuff.

[glc650]

@kim_hixson

I looked to it as an affordable gateway to full MQA decoding and rendering many months ago

Except this was never the case. I never saw anything like this advertised on iFi’s site. Why? Because a DAC is required for full decoding. The only thing that contradicts this is one user’s account of what iFi support told them.

As far as I can tell the only false advertising (regarding MQA anyway) on iFi’s part is that core decoding was broken/not available at launch. My understanding is that is fixed now or will be in the next update.

Any other “false advertising” is either just confusion around how MQA works and its terminology or the ■■ that the MQA creators have spewed since day one. All of which is on the creators of MQA not iFi (unless of course iFi’s support needs a refresher on MQA and how it relates to their products).

[kim_hixson (Kimmerdog)]

From Amazon Website, describing the ZEN

• UPGRADE YOUR SYSTEM – Add Network streaming capabilities to your existing sound system and turn any DAC ROON Compatible.
• EASY CONNECTIVITY – Connect the output to your system VIA USB3.0 (USB2.0 Compatible) or SPDIF.
• HI-RES STREAMER – With it’s high quality components the ZEN Stream supports up to 384kHz PCM, DSD256 and MQA.
• FUTURE PROOFED PERFORMANCE – Additional features and functionality can be added in the future VIA over the air updates keeping your transport up to date.
• HUGE SUPPORT– You can use the ZEN stream with TIDAL, Spotify, Qobuz, YouTube Music

Under “Hi-Res streamer”
“and MQA”…

[glc650]

Your point? I see no misinformation there regarding MQA. No claims of features only DACs support. And since when does Amazon pass as a mfg’s spec/product page anyway?

[Michael_Harris]

@glc650

My understanding is that is fixed now or will be in the next update.

Fixed in beta.

Let’s not forget the promise of Chromecast support, but they threw Google under the bus for that one.

Other than that it’s a great little machine that meets my needs in my study perfectly.

@kim_hixson the MQA works fine, but all MQA devices need a DAC that Also support MQA, I use it on a regular basis with my Zen DAC which support’s MQA decoding.
But it has been a basket case back and forth on MQA and licensing etc. Not a good look

[kim_hixson (Kimmerdog)]

So you are implying that ifi does not have any part in “suggesting” what it’s products are when posting them on Amazon, that Amazon does it all without ifi being involved???
[Moderated].

[glc650]

@Michael_Harris

Fixed in beta.

Good to know. Definitely should have been there day one but at least it is coming.

@Michael_Harris

Let’s not forget the promise of Chromecast support

Something else iFi should be on the hook for but it isn’t related to MQA so I left it out of this discussion.

@kim_hixson

So you are implying that ifi does not have any part in “suggesting” what it’s products are when posting them on Amazon, that Amazon does it all without ifi being involved???

Not at all. Stuff is misrepresented on Amazon all the time…but that’s my point. The mfg (their product page or sales/support) is where you should be confirming features not on Amazon and it is a moot point in this case anyway since I see nothing misleading with the info on Amazon.

[kim_hixson (Kimmerdog)]

Michael,
if ifi is going to advertise the ZEN as an" MQA" streamer, it seems to me they are being disingenuous here. There are so many buyers that do not share your knowledge of how MQA works (like I was), that seeing the words “and MQA” under the heading “hi-Res Streamer” is going to imply that the ZEN supports the full MQA experience? I did. And saying I was just naive is a cop-out for ifi. Nowhere in their description of the ZEN do they ever explain clearly the need for an MQA-capable DAC. It would have taken perhaps five words in their description to clarify this.

[Jim_F]

MQA functionality is a software and DAC attribute. Software can do the decoding as with Tidal, Roon, and Audirvana. The DAC can also do decoding and/or rendering or not.

[Michael_Harris]

Kim in which case you can flag every streamer for this as they all require a DAC or Amp that supports MQA to function.

Maybe it is disingenuous, my job is not to give Zen a pass and I have been very critical of them in these thread’s when I feel they have let us down.

There has been a lot of mistakes on the Zen side, but it’s still an excellent Roon streamer with a lot to offer in terms of SQ and price performance.

[glc650]

@kim_hixson

if ifi is going to advertise the ZEN as an" MQA" streamer

A DAC is needed for full MQA support. This is the case with every streamer that doesn’t have a built-in DAC. You either need a DAC capable of full decoding or you can use the core decoding feature of this streamer (which is what iFi is advertising here) and a DAC that is at least capable of rendering.

[Michael_Harris]

So if 3 of us say it in a row then it must be true

[kim_hixson (Kimmerdog)]

[Moderated] If I am following this line of logic, ifi is fine with Amazon using false advertising to sell the ZEN, and it’s the customer’s own fault to believe a product’;s description on Amazon… So, if a buyer were to contact ifi to complain, ifi’s response would be “You were foolish to trust Amazon”? That doesn’t seem to be a feasible argument unless ifi is fine with it’s products being represented in a misleading manner.
Concerning your impression of the “and MQA” verbage for the ZEN’s streaming abilities as “not misleading”, you seem to feel that it’s up to the buyer to do their own fact-checking on ifi products, when by merely adding the word “capable” to “MQA” would seem to clarify things. I can agree with that, but then why does ifi allow Amazon to post info on it’s website that contradicts what is on ifi’s official website? A poorly run company or dishonest company. to me.

[glc650]

It’s absolutely up to the buyer to do their homework so they make informed purchases. This true when buying a streamer or a house or anything else. [Moderated]

[kim_hixson (Kimmerdog)]

Michael,
In my limited knowledge of MQA, even if ifi had added one single word…saying “MQA capable” rather than just “MQA” I would have understood that the ZEN was not going to render the MQA signal decoded by Roon. For ifi to leave out that info is misleading.

[andybob (Andrew Cox)]

Moderators have cleaned up this thread to something that might be of interest to others. Please remember to talk about ideas and products, not each other.

[David_Snyder]

Back on topic, it’s been ~9 months since I’ve tested TIDAL Connect with the ZEN Stream. From this thread, I gathered that MQA Core Decoding functionality was removed from the stable (Jan 12th) firmware that I’m running. But, being the nerd that I am, I decided to test anyway. Those who know me will not be surprised. LOL.

My test involved running the TIDAL Connect app on macOS and Andriod with the ZEN Stream feeding an S.M.S.L. Sanskrit 10th v2 (non-MQA) DAC that happens to have an LED display to show incoming sampling rate. I switched the ZEN Stream to mode 3 (TIDAL-only) for these tests.

Much to my surprise, while streaming an MQA Studio Master with 44.1 kHz original sampling rate, I saw 88 kHz on the display (again, this is TIDAL Connect, not Roon). I created a playlist a while back to help with MQA functionality testing. It’s made up of MQA Studio Master tracks with sampling rates from 44.1 to 352.8 kHz. Here’s a link:

https://tidal.com/browse/playlist/6097b62b-ea0d-4087-8e0d-7e4475334946

As I play tracks from this list, the display on the S.M.S.L. DAC cycles between 88.2 khz and 96 kHz. If the ZEN Stream was not doing MQA Core Decoding (first unfold), I would expect to see 44.1 and 48 kHz instead since these are the streaming rates from TIDAL.

CPU usage on the ZEN Stream is also elevated while playing these tracks to the S.M.S.L.

Switching back to the Topping E50 (MQA Decoder and Renderer), its display shows “MQA .”, indicating that the stream is an MQA Studio Master and that the DAC is handling both decoding and rendering. Using TIDAL’s terminology, MQA Passthrough is enabled on the ZEN Stream (the first unfold is disabled). CPU usage by the TIDAL app on the ZEN Stream is also lower when playing to the E50:

My hypothesis is that the ZEN Stream firmware queries the DAC’s MQA capabilities via USB. If the DAC reports that it’s an MQA Decoder, the ZEN Stream switches its TIDAL Connect software to “MQA Passthrough” mode. Otherwise, the ZEN Stream does MQA Core Decoding. Presumably, if the DAC is only an MQA Renderer, the ZEN Stream will also do the first unfold, enabling the DAC to complete final unfolds internally.

Unfortunately, none of the MQA Renderer-only DACs in my collection have a display that tells me if they are doing MQA Rendering, so I’m unable to confirm behavior for MQA Renderer-only DACs.

For ZEN Stream users like me who are sticking with stable iFi firmware, this is good news. Of course, this is inconsequential for Roon (mode 2) users since Roon Core handles all of this MQA nonsense in a much nicer way. I just thought it would be interesting to explore and a few folks might be interested in my results.

[glc650]

@David_Snyder

My test involved running the TIDAL Connect app on macOS and Andriod

In that case isn’t the Tidal app that you installed on the mac/phone (and not the ZS) doing the core decoding? The last time I played Tidal MQA in my bedroom (non-MQA DAC) without Roon I hooked up my mac to my DAC via USB and used the tidal app on my mac for playback. I got the first unfold (as shown by the sampling rate on my DAC’s display). Don’t you have to use the Tidal app on the ZS in order to get the ZS to do the core decoding?