I’d be a lot more afraid of “noise” via Ethernet or USB if someone could point me to actual measurements of such noise, instead of anecdotes about someone’s hearing.
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The world is a wonderful place, still full of mystery if one is willing to seek it. It’s all of our differences that make us who we are, and we should celebrate that, and yet some find it so very frustrating.
I’m done with this topic. I know what I’ve done and what I hear, and if it’s all a delusion then so be it as I’m very happy in it. In relative hifi terms it hasn’t cost me that much but tweaking the network has consistently breathed new life into the same analog gear I’ve had for years now. How about not knockin’ it till you actually try it?
It might be good if we could all agree to disagree on this and move on to other more useful topics.
Except for the fact that 5 years ago no one had them but today 2 of the leading streamer manufacturers as I’ve noted are putting them in all their new products
Thank you! That’s exactly a point that I forgot to mention.
Delta-sigma DACs, by design produce prodigious amounts of RF noise. Which is why their output is passed through an analogue low-pass filter, to remove said RF noise. As a bonus, any RF noise introduced upstream of the DAC (i.e., as part of the digital signal chain) will be removed by the same low-pass filter that removes the RF noise produced by the DAC itself.
That’s why the measurements, that I posted links to, showed no hints of RF noise from using a switching power supply (whether upstream for the streamer or for the DAC itself).
If there’s a market for snake-oil, it is the essence of the capitalist system that someone will step forward to supply it.
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Hmm. I guess it’s snake oil when two of the top streaming companies are putting in more expensive optical network connectors in at no additional cost. What brilliance. Make less money for no reason. And it’s snake oil when one of the best DACs in the industry’s designer has gone into extensive technical detail on rf noise leakage into Dave and it’s effect. And I can believe my own ears with my own systems. You can keep your own snake oil.
Putting ferrite chokes on a digital signal cable is a certifiably bad idea. All you’re doing is degrading the digital signal (which, remember is RF-frequency). The fact that the cable still works at all, after doing so, is a testament to the robustness of digital technology.
If the alternative is dropping your prices, because your device offers no significant advantage over other, cheaper, alternatives, then — yes — desperate times call for desperate measures.
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The beauty of life. To each their own. And the beauty of mute in forums…
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Here’s a post that will anger many and amuse a few. I’ll probably get a ban for this, but here goes.
There’s a saying somewhere about fools and their money.
The fact that seemingly intelligent grown ups still buy into completely unprovable and unsubstantiated nonsense when it comes to hi-fi is almost unbelievable to me. It’s akin to having faith in some form of deity. You believe, you always will and you’ll do so no matter how much proof exists to the contrary (or rather how little proof that your belief is real exists).
You can’t rationalise with that mindset, its a fixed quantity. That mindset is not interested in facts, it’s only interested in subjective opinion (and only the subjective opinion of those that agree with them). Objective fact has no place in this situation. occasionally it’s also interested in the opinion of a flawed blind test done with a few mates whilst having a few drinks, or their wife from the kitchen that suddenly thinks it sounds 17.25% better than it did yesterday.
Home brew blind tests are absolutely rife with expectation bias and predictability that make them utterly pointless in the real world. Laboratory controlled double blind tests have time and time again proven that most of this stuff is nonsense. Wife’s are also liable to bias and saying things that make their partners happy.
Its why James Randi was happy to offer $1million to anyone that could reliably identify a high end cable in a proper controlled double blind test. he knew, as well as many do that its utter nonsense.
I’ve been there. I’ve done cable tweakery. I spent a large portion of 2000-2015 tweaking with hifi in that sense. The day I realised that in reality everything I was hearing was expectation bias, I started saving a lot of money. I no longer expect to hear a difference when people plug things in… so I don’t.
I recently tried various hookup methods in my system, just to see what would happen.
-iTunes via mac mini through optical cable straight into DAC
-Roon via USB to spdif adapter (audioquest) Into DAC
-Roon via USB straight into DAC
Surprise surprise, they all sounded utterly identical. Because one piece of software and digital hookup method, is just as capable of delivering bit-perfect audio as the next bit of software and digital hookup. Any other belief is just that, a belief.
You are all welcome to have your beliefs, but don’t try to infect others with it. Magazines and retailers and manufacturers stand to make millions from these beliefs… what do you stand to gain from convincing others? (aside from confirming your own belief perhaps?)
I’ll just leave that there.
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Hear hear!
(plus enough characters to make up 10)
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More importantly, what do you stand to lose?
Your credibility.
If you’re going to insist that a USB cable or an ethernet switch can improve SQ, who is going to trust what — perhaps completely valid — things you have to say on other matters?
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There’s some trope about a recovered sinner being the most severe judge of others…
You’re not alone in your thinking about this, but the whole scientific method is a relatively recent development in human history, and in our bag of tools for understanding the world around us. Give a little grace to those who haven’t caught up yet, is what I say. After all, there are lots of people out there making a living by trying to infect others with their beliefs, particularly with the various political campaigns going on now. Live and let live!
It’s the ones cynically trying to scam and cheat others which deserve our voluble derision!
Good post!
But with reference to the title of the tread, the Nucleus offers truly ‘turnkey’ access to Roon, as compared to a NUC.
This is the biggest advantage of a Nucleus IMO.
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NUC vs. Nucleus.
They both sound great? I have a NUC yet have only read that the Nucleus in addition provides a turnkey solution in a silent stylist case + support. In terms or SQ I read its close if any difference? From a digital device perspective the NUC is a great platform for computer audio.
David_Crosbie1 rant of the day has merit and seems to focus on the digital domain and agree in principle that you can spend a little and obtain very good SQ.
That said at times we blind test (not to lab standards) and I only set up source db levels and listen, the switching over is normally by my son or friend/s before an evening/diner. Results at times can show clear wins and at others zero or little difference (back goes the home auditioned piece).
IMHO the money priority should be spent on the Music (1st) , Speakers, Amps and DAC (in no particular order) with the digital realm in a lower cost balance …. Do not spend too high on digital as a general rule. My own experience on streamers is you can build your own for ¼ to 1/3 the price of a brand name for qual or better SQ which brings us nicely back to NUC vs. Nucleus in principle!
At the moment I am building my final Streamer (maybe ever! with maybe minor future tweaks only), have today cannibalised some parts form my current self-built streamer and, in its place, temporarily have a RPI3 + DigiOne Signature + BNC cable + a nice LPS …. Forgot just how good for little money it sounded and not too unhappy with this temporary stop-over (yet a step down from the now cannibalised streamer). The new streamer chassis I am machining and need to spray paint some parts.
Also agree some magazines and retailers can put a spin on things. I remember home auditioning a Chord Hugo DAC which IMHO clearly lost to an older Chord QBD76 DAC, which I assumed was just due to a better output stage !!! Yet the press claimed the Hugo was a reference DAC???
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There is no difference in SQ. Why would there be?
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My thoughts exactly… NUC vs. Nucleus, why would they sound different.
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I would be very keen to follow your build as I’m planning to get a Pi4B + Pi2Designs Pi2AES as a streamer. Do you think you might share your build process and parts list on a thread here so it can be duplicated/adapted by a total DIY noob?
Hi Roy, It has taken me just over a year (on & off) to build this. I have bought and tried many components from around the world and made a few prototypes. It has reached a point where it could be a business and I am at the point of could this be a saleable product range? I even bought a milling machine, solder station and made some of the internal data cables etc. The picture you see has the ‘over the top’ components inside where the SQ increase did not justify the extra spend and now sits on my HiFi as a monument to ‘stop spending’, yet sounds fantastic and am more than happy to stop development right here (on that model …as it has a four figure $ value inside).
That said the ‘business prototype’ (looks similar, in black with the screen off-set) in our own (none lab blind testing) listening sounded no worse than 3# $5,000+ streamers, which I had on home audition. The key is a clean signal as soon as ethernet enters the box to USB/AES/SPDIF/Coax/BNC/Opt OUT. Interestingly if the DAC has synchronous USB option the streamers OCX clock sounded better than the DAC’s asynchronous (this is on the ‘stop spending’ version).
Hope you can understand that I am unwilling to provide a list of parts etc… What I have learnt is some parts are made in batches and once gone that is it manufacture over. So, this may be why product sellers make their own PCB’s to protect copyright and limit risk of supplies part obsolesce.
In 3 months. Need to decide if this is a life style change with capital risks or not. I am reading regulations at the moment i.e. Europe sales will need a low power standby state with a number of safeguards included. The marketing plan/budget is eye watering at the moment (word of mouth will not hacked it if this is a career change).
Hi Derek,
I understand completely. Thanks for taking the time to reply at such length. I wish you all the very best for a decision which is right for you. Good luck with your plans.
Sorry Roy,
I did not answer your question. Have not heard the Pi2Designs Pi2AES HAT so I cannot comment on SQ or quality. That said, it looks very interesting and a stated ’75 Ohm BNC’ implementation is good to see.
I have tried the Allo Digione Signature and can confirm it is a strong product, coupled with a Pi 3 or 4 am sure will provide enjoyable quality results and good Sound.
I have found some budget PCB’s can sound great and expensive PCB’s are not value for money with average SQ.
Good measurements/components are a good start yet not always best sound as implementation is key. Plus, just means we are human and not clones also!
My streamer project has meant I have a lot of products/parts/PCB’s now in a box … I just cant add up the grand total of all co$t$ for the chance of bringing on a heart attack. Even thought its all on an XL$ …