Nucleus plus as insurance for the future

Roon Software Discussion Nucleus
41

Thanks everyone for all the detailed information. It has been very, very helpful. After using Roon for close to two weeks on my laptop, I have decided to dive in and try to assemble a NUC and install ROCK and a 2 TB SSD. This will be my Roon core.

I am trying to figure out how to create Roon endpoints with the non-roon ready gear I already own. i think i have a solution. I’ve started another thread for that.

i am probably going to run into all sorts of problems…so no doubt more questions will come. thanks again!

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42

If you enjoy, or at least get through the ROCK installation with no problems, you should look at RPi3 with Ropieee. It is even easier than a NUC, they work great, and are a RoonReady endpoint solution. Just plug in whatever DAC you have and you’re good.

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43

The cheapest solution is a Raspberry-based solution, for instance, the Hifiberry which is officially supported by Roon (but there are other solutions that also work, see the Ropieee website). The next best things are the Volumio Primo and the ELAC Discovery Connect.

45

Really interesting thread, and lots of information came to light that I was unaware of, particularly the point put forward about about which device does the streaming - eg is it the Nucleus or the endpoint streamer? After reading some posts my understanding (v limited lol)has me wondering if some parts of my Roon ecosystem are either superfluous, or vastly over qualified (price wise) for the role they are performing.
A few days ago I bought a Fanless Roon Music Server to be my new Roon Core, replacing my QNAP Nas. My endpoint is a Cambridge Audio 851N streamer.
So now my setup is the Roon Server, connected to the 851N streamer by USB audio cable.
So my question is does my new Roon music server make the 851N streamer largely redundant, and would I be as well just having a cheap streaming device such as a Raspberry Pi as the endpoint, as opposed to a £1200 streamer like the 851N, or does the 851N outperform the Pi due to higher quality components etc?
Also I am a bit confused to the role of the DAC in all of this. I do not have an external DAC in my set up, the DAC that I use is the one in my Lyngdorf TDAI-2170 amp which I am led to believe is an outstanding DAC. This is achieved by disabling the DAC in my 851N by switching the pre amp setting to “Off”, and running a digital coax cable between the 851N and the Lyngdorf amp.
I have a nagging feeling that I am over egging the pudding here with the way my system is configured and wonder if I have too many devices in the chain, so any advice gratefully accepted, thanks.!

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So if you connect the 851N by USB to your Roon server, it doesn’t even operate as a Network bridge. You could use it as network endpoint connecting it via Ethernet to your network.

But, I think this doesn’t make sense if you plan on bypassing its internal DAC and wish to use your Lyngdorf amp’s DAC instead. In this scenario, the 851N doesn’t do anything but receiving the bitstream on its USB or Ethernet interface and outputting it on its coax S/PDIF interface into your Lyngdorf.

You should try and compare which one of two scenarios you prefer as to sound:

  1. Connect your 851N to Ethernet and use its analogue output into the analogue in of your Lyngdorf. This is, using it as Roon endpoint with the 851N’s internal DAC.

  2. Compare that to your current setup, and if you prefer the sound of the Lyngdorf’s DAC, replace the 851N with a simpler Roon endpoint, like a Raspberry Pi with a HAt that allows you to output coax S/PDIF from the RPi into your Lyngdorf. One piece of hardware recommended for this is the Pi2AES Pro Audio Shield, but there are others. This can be done for unser USD 200.

47

Connecting the 851 by USB negates the streamer portion of the 851, you are by passing it and using just a digital input. You will probably see no artwork just the identification of the digital input . You are in effect using a superb streamer simply as a DAC

CA also has an issue with class 2 USB with Linux on the RPi / Roipeee set up , it’s a CA issue not Riopeee, there’s a big thread about it . You are limited to USB class 1 ie 24/96 not class 2 24/192, Putting a RPi in between and using USB won’t help, you will still negate the streamer unit in the same way as server by USB as above. The RPi route is really designed as a streamer via Ethernet.

Your best bet is to use the 851 as a Roon Ready device (you need to be on the latest firmware , about 6 months ago) by using RAAT Via a Ethernet connection . Connect your server to the router , connect your 851 Ethernet to the router. You will use the full potential of the 851 and see artwork, this is Roon’s recommended set up ie to isolate server and streamer by Ethernet

Sorry to be the messenger

Good luck

@Andreas_Philipp1 got in first …

48

Thanks for the replies Andreas and Mike.

Ok, sounds like using USB from the Roon server is the first thing to get rid of, so I’m now on Ethernet.

Now I just need to get to the bottom of the quandry as to what to do with the 851N and the Lyngdorf amp. I must admit I love the 851N and just couldn’t bear the thought of being without it, but everything I have heard about the Lyngdorf suggests the DAC is far superior to the 851N, albeit the 851N is apparently a great DAC in its own right so thats a tough choice to have to make. Anyway, I connected the 851N analogue out to the analogue in of the Lyngdorf and it does sound excellent using the 851N DAC.

To add into the equation, I have a miniDSP USBstreamer which I use for portable listening only, at night connected to Hugo 2 DAC for listening with headphones - I have never used it as part of my hifi setup. Until now that is - I have just connected it to the Roon music server via USB, and then used a Toslink cable to connect to the Lyngdorf. This allows me to use the Lyngdorf DAC, and takes the 851N out of the mix. The miniDSP is effectively the Raspberry Pi in the scenario Andreas put forward.

As far as sound quality goes, all three options I have trialled sound equally fantastic to my ears, although I’m sure one of the options would come out on top if somebody better qualified than me ran some benchmark tests. However I doubt the average human ear could detect the best of the three options, so with all that said I haven’t a clue what choice to make :slight_smile:

I’m guessing that the sensible option is option 1 suggested by Andreas - eg “Connect your 851N to Ethernet and use its analogue output into the analogue in of your Lyngdorf. This is, using it as Roon endpoint with the 851N’s internal DAC.”

Finally, does anybody have any strong feelings as to which option is the obvious choice to make?

PS - I’m still not grasping what it is that the 851N is not doing when I connect it to my Lyngdorf using a digital coax cable, so if anybody can spoon feed me that info that would be great :smiley:

49

You are making choices. They are:
Using you Roon core to control everything.
Using your 851N as a Roon endpoint.
Choosing to use the DAC in the 851N or the DAC in the Lyngdorf.

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I haven’t bothered to read through this entire thread, so pardon me if my comments are redundant. But, this is my thinking. I believe that less is more. Why add additional devices if you don’t need them?

You need a router, of course. Then you need ethernet from the router to a Roon core device. I use a Roon Nucleus. The Roon core device is the brains of Roon and everything passes through the core including local music, Tidal, Qobuz, and metadata.

From the Roon core, you send your music to one or more Roon end-points. In my case they are an Oppo 203 DVD player and two different Raspberry Pi 4’s. These can be connected by ethernet or WIFI. From there, you send the digital music to a DAC to be converted to analog and then to your music system which consist of an amp and speakers.

In addition, you can connect certain devices directly to your Roon core using USB or HDMI, then from there to a DAC and music system. I have my Oppo 203 also connected to my Nucleus by HDMI, but can not detect any difference in SQ. Some people say a direct USB connection can be noisy.

With Roon, I’m not sure why people add an additional “streaming” device. The Roon core is all you need to pull in your local music and Tidal and/or Qobuz. Some people believe a more expensive “streaming” device improves SQ, IDK.

In addition, there are all kinds of other devices you can add along the way in an effort to improve SQ. I guess these devices can filter out unwanted electrical noise, etc. Personally, I have found no reason for any of these. Maybe you need a much more expensive amp and speakers to detect some of this unwanted noise, IDK.

In the end, I think it’s the DAC, speakers, and master file that determine SQ more than anything else.

My 2 cents worth.

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In that case you simply shortcut its internal DAC, running digital out from the 851N to digital in of the Lyngdorf. It’s the Lyngdorf’s DAC doing the digital to analogue conversion.

The 851N as Roon-Ready device ideally is used connected to Ethernet, and going analogue out to your amplifier. Used that way, you would have all benefits of a Roon-Ready device.

If you decide you like the Lyngdorf DAC’s sound better, then I would get rid of the 851N and use a small Roon Bridge based endpoint like the one I have mentioned in my previous post.

But, of course, you could use the 851N also just as a network bridge device and go digital out into your Lyngdorf’s digital input

In any case, you need some kind of network-connected Roon endpoint, unless you go the simplest route which would be to use a USB to S/PDIF converter and connect your Roon Core directly to the Lyngdorf amplifier.

52

Thanks for your replies Andreas, Jim and Henry.

I will stick with the config of Roon server to 851N via ethernet, and use analogue out in the Lyngdorf amp.
However I want to ask advice regarding DAC. As I said I have the Chord Hugo 2 DAC so I am wondering if there is any extra mileage in bypassing the 851N DAC and using the Hugo 2 DAC instead? Would the best way to hook this up be by running analogue cable from Hugo 2 analogue out to analogue in of Lyngdorf amp, then digital Toslink cable from Hugo 2 DAC to the 851N?
With that config is it safe to say the 851N is being utilised to its max in my Roon config, with the added bonus that I believe the Chord is a superior DAC to the 851’s own DAC.

Sorry for all the dumb questions but every day is a school day learning about Roon and streaming in general!!

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If you use your Hugo 2 DAC and output analogue to your Lyngdorf, there’d be no sense in outputting digital from Hugo 2 to the 851N. You use one of the two as a DAC, but not the two at the same time.

Edit: I think I didn’t quite get what you proposed. It now seems to me that you are proposing to use the 851N as network bridge and output from it using Toslink into your Hugo 2. That, of course, should work.

And again, if you decide to use the Hugo 2 in your WiFi setup, then you’d need some network-connected Roon endpoint, or you could try to connect the Hugo 2 directly to USB out from your Roon core server. In fact, that’s what I would do to check the sound you get from the Hugo 2, compared to your 851N and/or Lyngdorf DACs.

One advise I’d give you is to try any one of your DACs for some extended time, a couple of weeks at least; I think it’s quite impossible to decide upon small sound differences in one listening session.

So, I’d think that if you decide upon the convenience of a Roon-Ready tested streamer-DAC like the 851N, you’d want to output analogue into your Lyngdorf amp.

If, on the other hand, you decide you like your Lyngdorf’s DAC or the Hugo 2 better in your system, I’d let go the 851N. You could either connect directly to your Roon core server or use a Roon Bridge device.

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Once you go through whichever DAC you want to use, you can’t go back to a digital signal lest you will negate the effects of your DAC and will hear the results of the next DAC you go through. There is no reason to go through more than one DAC and it’s the last DAC you will hear. If you have more than one DAC, get rid of the one you don’t want to hear.

That said, if your setup requires you to include some device just to get the signal from the source to the destination, then you can do that, if necessary. Usually, you would keep the signal in a digital format and bypass any superfluous DAC.

As a matter of fact, that’s exactly what I am doing. I go digital from my Roon Nucleus via ethernet to an Oppo 203 DVD that includes a very good DAC. Then, I go HDMI to a Bose system that includes an unknown DAC. I am bypassing the Oppo DAC and using the Bose DAC just because the Oppo is a Roon Ready device and needed to use RAAT from Nucleus to Bose. For better SQ, I would use analog out of the Oppo to a sound system (amp and speakers), if I had one.

EDIT: As further explanation, my Bose does not have analog in, only HDMI and optical. It is a DAC, amp, and speakers all-in-one.

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Thanks for the replies guys, but due to my lack of knowledge I am now actually totally confused as to how to obtain the best configuration with all the components at my disposal :smiley: And just to make matters worse I think the sound I am getting by adding the Hugo 2 into the mix as described in my last post is by far the best sounding of any of the configurations I have attempted so far, and if I read you guys correctly I am not connecting the components properly.

Andreas: - I have no idea what a network bridge is, but with your edit are you saying that using Toslink from 851N into Hugo 2 is practical and I no longer have 2 DACS in the chain?

Perhaps it’s time to go back to the drawing board as I am obviously out of my depth at the moment. It seems my main decision is which DAC should I use from the three at my disposal. There is DAC from the 851N streamer, the DAC in the Lyngdorf amp, and the Hugo 2 DAC. It seems like the Lyngdorf DAC is the easiest one to eliminate so that leaves the DACs from the 851N and the Hugo 2.
I think I am clear that I want to keep the 851N in my Roon setup, but if possible my preference would be to come up with some kind of combination that uses the Hugo 2 as the DAC in the system. If that is possible what would be the simplest way to connect the Roon server, 851N, Hugo 2 DAC and the Lyngdorf amp?
If this is overcooking things is the main advice to just keep things simple, and have a configuration of Roon server, connected by ethernet to 851N, and then analogue out to the Lyngdorf amp?

Again, sorry for all the dumb questions, and for probably not fully understanding the replies - but just want to get a system that doesnt have any extra links in the chain, and gets the best use and the best sound from all the components at my disposal.

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Digital connection from streamer to chord. Analogue connection from chord to amp. If that sound best to your ears enjoy the music.

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57

Hi Kevin,

Nothing dumb about your questions. Let’s try and clear that up a bit.

If you are saying that with your Hugo 2 in your chain you are getting by far the best sound, I’d say keep it in the chain because it’s all about good sound, isn’t it?

So now we have to find out how to get the digital signal from your Roon Core to the Hugo 2. This can be achieved in two ways:

(1) Direct connection of the Hugo 2 DAC to your Roon core server.

(2) Using a device which receives the signal from your Roon core on its Ethernet port and ouputs it on any other digital port - Coax, Toslink, etc.

This second approach is the ‘network bridge’ approach, and to make it work, Roon has released a small bit of software called ‘Roon Bridge’. This software can be either installed in a suitable computer device, or it can be integrated into streaming devices like the CA 851N as part of their Roon-Ready certification.

So, you say you’d like to keep using the 851N. In this case, you’ll use it as a network bridge for Roon. You’ll connect your 851N to your network, and use one of its digital outputs to send the digital signal to your Hugo 2.

The analogue output from the Hugo 2 goes into the analogue input ports of your Lyngdorf, and voilá, that would be your signal path:

Roon Core server —> via Ethernet to CA 851N —> via S/PDIF to Hugo 2 —> via analogue RCA to Lyngdorf.

I think you have a nice setup there, enjoy it!!

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58

Phillipp is correct. This configuration allows you to keep the signal in digital format until it reaches the DAC of your choice, the Hugo 2. Then, the DAC converts from digital to analog and sends that to your sound system.

The only reason to not use the 851N, in this case, is if you would be better served to sell it and replace it with a much less costly alternative since it is acting only as a Roon bridge. That’s not something you need to think about or decide now. Try it this way for a while.

Ethernet from Roon core to 851N is the way to go. I don’t know all the alternatives you have for connecting from the 851N to your Hugo 2. There may be several possible digital connections. Find what the common connections are and ask here which might be best. It may not matter.

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59

Ethernet to the 851, analog to your amp is your best configuration. The jumping through hoops you have to go through to achieve any other configuration isn’t worth the effort. You have a very good setup there. Don’t over complicate matters in pursuit of some sort of significant improvement because you probably won’t find it.

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Think of the 851 as an infinite CD player just plug 2 Analogue wires into the CD input of your amp

It has 3 bits

1 - Streamer unit to connect to Ethernet or WiFi via its dongle to accept the digital input from your network. This shows embedded artwork

2 - DAC unit to convert to analogue , it does a lot of tricky processing to ensure highest quality

3 - Preamp unit, it has various digital inputs, USB, optical and coax and various outputs optical and coax to pass Digital signal to another device . This bypasses the streamer unit completely hence NO artwork

The DAC can be bypassed and use just the preamp as digital in, digital out, or not bypasssed to get digital in analogue out.

The preamp can be used

Digital in digital out
Digital in Analogue out

In each case bypassing the streamer unit

It’s all controlled natively with the CA StreamMagic app which gives additional access t internet radio , Tidal and Qobuz, it duplicates Roon in this respect

It is more recently Roon Ready to accept Ethernet input in Roon’s RAAT format, hence the firmware update some months back

It’s the mid range product in CA CXN, 581 and now Edge

It will soon support Tidal Connect after a forthcoming firmware update , (soon they claim)

Personally I would use the 581 as Ethernet in, analogue out. To do anything less is a waste. If not take @Andreas_Philipp1 advice and sell it

I use a CXN btw ,have been for 8 yrs +, big CA fan must be my Cambridge heritage :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Clear as mud ?

61

Thanks to Andreas, Jim, Mike and Gary for all your input, much appreciated.

I’ve decided I want to use Hugo Dac rather than 851N DAC, - it’s just showing a preference for one DAC over another even though it’s adding another piece of equipment in to the chain :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:.

Seems like if I was starting from scratch and looking to buy a streamer to partner with my Roon core server, Hugo 2 DAC and amp then you guys would be giving good advice by telling me to save some money and buy a Pi and a HAT, or some other fairly cheap network bridge rather than splash out more money on an expensive streamer such as the 851N. At the end of the day though I already have the 851N, and I’m not desperate to sell it, so surely makes sense to keep it? Aesthetically it also looks better than a Pi, and does display the artwork. One question I would ask though, is a network bridge really just the same as any other network bridge regardless of price- should the 851N not outperform a Pi? Are the components in the 851N not superior to the Pi?

So my setup is now Roon server as Core, connected to network by Ethernet. 851N streamer connected to network by Ethernet. Hugo 2 DAC connected to 851N by Toslink digital cable, and Lyngdorf amp connected to Hugo 2 DAC by analogue RCA cables.

One final question. Should I keep pre amp disabled on 851N, or does it not even matter with the way I have connected everything else?